John Murray Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 So, the Colts have won two world titles? But Toronto has won the World Series... Glad I'm not the only one who picked up on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 EXACTLY the point. Its too bad that DCI has become this way with a few elites and a few upper echelon and a bunch of 13ths on down. Lack of available corps to join has made this the case. Top talent chasing rings and then the rest fighting for position. This is an old argument. What seems to be a situation set in stone (the elite are always elite and the cycle continues) is, in fact, only the result of the quality of the team in place. BD is a well oiled machine with a long-time staff that knows each other well. It's true that due to their situation they have built a membership that is stable and highly trained/skilled/talented (all interchangable). But it all begins with a design (visual & music) staff that work well together and an openess that allows members to offer ideas. It's sort of like being in "the zone" and being fortunate enough to maintain that balance, year after year. Without the design you may still have a great training staff and players; but a weak show is a weak show no matter who is marching it.......the Colts, Crown, Madison, Spirit, Cavies, BD, whoever. So a lower tier corps can continue to spin the wheel every few years and hope to hit a jackpot with designers and staff or they can build it and work to keep it. It's ridiculous to believe the judging community rewards corps based on their position in previous years (PR is proof of that). So if the Colts or Academy come up with a killer show that is executed superbly, it is my belief that they will not be punished simply because of their past placement. The show and execution is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craiga Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 It really is not fair to the accomplishments of Blue Devils, Cavs, Cadets to put Crown and Bluecoats in their mix.If Crown or Bluecoats win just one Title, perhaps one could put them in the mix with Blue Devils, Cavs, Cadets. But really, a Corps has to win at least ONE title to realistically be put in the same mix of these 3 elite Corps that have won many multiple titles... and over a course of decades to boot. These 3 Corps alone make up 80% of all the DCI Titles won since DCI's inception over 35 years ago. Crown is not yet in this mix. Neither are the Bluecoats, as fine as these Corps are of late. BRASSO, you are quite correct. The term "Elite" is what is in question. Are BD, Cavies, and Cadets "Elite"? They are all former champions and CONSISTENTLY in the top five or six, so I would say yes. SCV? Yes, for the same reason. Crown? Here is where it gets sticky. No, they are not former champions. And, while their star is definitely on the rise, BAC has been in the top 7 more than they have. Actually, BAC has been in the top 12 more than they have as well. Phantom? Well, they won twice with great shows, but are now in 9th. Is that "Elite"? I do not know. But with them in 9th and Boston and Bluestars ahead, what does that make those two corps? In some fashion, Crown's recent rise is good for Bluecoats, BAC, and Bluestars, because it demonstrates that corps can in fact rise through the ranks. As for what I think "Elite" should mean, I put more weight on longevity......which corps have survived the longest??!! Here are my Elite Corps, in order of longevity: #1. The Cadets #2. Madison Scouts #3. Boston Crusaders #4. Cavaliers #5. Troopers These corps are truly "ELITE"!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) BRASSO, you are quite correct. The term "Elite" is what is in question. Are BD, Cavies, and Cadets "Elite"? They are all former champions and CONSISTENTLY in the top five or six, so I would say yes. SCV? Yes, for the same reason. Crown? Here is where it gets sticky. No, they are not former champions. And, while their star is definitely on the rise, BAC has been in the top 7 more than they have. Actually, BAC has been in the top 12 more than they have as well. Phantom? Well, they won twice with great shows, but are now in 9th. Is that "Elite"? I do not know. But with them in 9th and Boston and Bluestars ahead, what does that make those two corps? In some fashion, Crown's recent rise is good for Bluecoats, BAC, and Bluestars, because it demonstrates that corps can in fact rise through the ranks. As for what I think "Elite" should mean, I put more weight on longevity......which corps have survived the longest??!! Here are my Elite Corps, in order of longevity: #1. The Cadets #2. Madison Scouts #3. Boston Crusaders #4. Cavaliers #5. Troopers These corps are truly "ELITE"!!! And of course, Drum Corps did not start with DCI. So, if we do not limit this to a specific time frame, but look at this from a much broader view,the Boston Crusaders and the Troopers have both won National Titles in their past, (something Bluecoats, Crown has not done as of today). That said, probably not everyone would agree on what the criteria should be. Thus, I can understand fans having a different group of Corps that for them that constitute " Elite ". We had this discussion thread last year if i recall. My personal criteria is, (in order of priority) : 1) number of Titles won ... 2) number of times runner up ....3) what have you done for us lately. With my personal criteria then, only BD, Cadets, Cavs make " Elite Status " level. Even SCV, Phantom, Madison miss out. But I recognize that " Elite Status " can mean different things to different people too. And that's cool as well. Edited December 9, 2009 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) Which part is bs? The ring chasers? The few elites? I hate to start the ring chaser argument, because that's not really what this is about, but lets go there for a second...and look at the reasons people march in a top corps. These are not in any particular order. Reason 1 - grew up loving the corps. I dont even live in Jersey, but I have a lot of friends that have loved the cadets (in MD) since they were first introduced to band. My friends and family in jersey, mostly grew up with the corps, and there was never any other place TO march. My sister grew up watching me march....guess where she wound up?? Reason 2 - marketing- ties into reason 1, but how many people list their favorite show as cadets 2000, scv 89, BD 94, Cavies 04, etc?... When talking about new fans to the activity, the fact is that the first shows their friend or band director EVER shows them is going to probably be a famous championship show, or something close in notoriety. When people grow up with a certain corps, chances are they're going to march in that corps if at all possible. Reason 3 - staff / connections. More people go to where the big names are. Call it a negative if you must, but with DCI being more about 'education' (which yes, is an arguable point), kids go where the famous staff is. They also go where they have connections...or where their boa staff teaches in some cases.....and this is HUGE for winterguard. Now, does the best staff winding up at the best corps sort of perpetuate this cycle...mostly, but look at madison this year for example. Before a single word was said about their show design or retro uniform, there was already HUGE hype about them, and all the kids that would be clamoring to audition there. Kids, especially college students often look for what kind of musical value they're going to get out of their experience, and go where the best teachers are. Reason 4 - THEY WANT TO BE AMAZING. I dont know how else to put this, and I'm sorry if offends somebody, but if you have been marching in a smaller corps for a few years, only have 1 or 2 years left, and have spent years watching these top groups perform, you may want to be a part of that. Most of the people i know that came up to Cadets from another corps didnt do it to chase a ring, they did it to be a part of THE FREAKING CADETS!....I dont know, maybe I'm naive, but thats kind of a big deal to people. Im sure the same thing happens to people that go to BD or Cavies. Do those 3 have the best statistical chance of winning any given year?....sure, but they also have the best chance of being holy-crap-thats-so-insane-its-legendary each year as well. For someone that can only afford to march DCI 1 more time, there really is no other choice if you want that experience. Pretty much without exception, the reason people in 2005 in my corps were happy after finals wasn't because we got a piece of metal....they were happy because we were freaking AWESOME. I dont know, maybe it sounds like the same thing to some, but to me, those reasons dont sound like ring chasing to me. Chasing history, tradition, excellence?....finding the best fit, going where you always dreamed?....yeah. Ring chasing?...not so much... Oh, and I have more reasons, but i think this is enough for now -------- disclaimer - I recognize that ring chasers DO exist, but by and large they are few in number, and not really indicative of the general mobility of the dci populace. Additionally, I recognize that there is also a TON of value to be had in other kinds of marching experiences, and am in no way trying to put those down. Thank you, and good night Edited December 10, 2009 by euponitone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaners Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 there is so much B.S. in this thread, it has reached that point where it is just funny to read... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesjones0611 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I hate to start the ring chaser argument, because that's not really what this is about, but lets go there for a second...and look at the reasons people march in a top corps. These are not in any particular order.Reason 1 - grew up loving the corps. I dont even live in Jersey, but I have a lot of friends that have loved the cadets (in MD) since they were first introduced to band. My friends and family in jersey, mostly grew up with the corps, and there was never any other place TO march. My sister grew up watching me march....guess where she wound up?? Reason 2 - marketing- ties into reason 1, but how many people list their favorite show as cadets 2000, scv 89, BD 94, Cavies 04, etc?... When talking about new fans to the activity, the fact is that the first shows their friend or band director EVER shows them is going to probably be a famous championship show, or something close in notoriety. When people grow up with a certain corps, chances are they're going to march in that corps if at all possible. Reason 3 - staff / connections. More people go to where the big names are. Call it a negative if you must, but with DCI being more about 'education' (which yes, is an arguable point), kids go where the famous staff is. They also go where they have connections...or where their boa staff teaches in some cases.....and this is HUGE for winterguard. Now, does the best staff winding up at the best corps sort of perpetuate this cycle...mostly, but look at madison this year for example. Before a single word was said about their show design or retro uniform, there was already HUGE hype about them, and all the kids that would be clamoring to audition there. Kids, especially college students often look for what kind of musical value they're going to get out of their experience, and go where the best teachers are. Reason 4 - THEY WANT TO BE AMAZING. I dont know how else to put this, and I'm sorry if offends somebody, but if you have been marching in a smaller corps for a few years, only have 1 or 2 years left, and have spent years watching these top groups perform, you may want to be a part of that. Most of the people i know that came up to Cadets from another corps didnt do it to chase a ring, they did it to be a part of THE FREAKING CADETS!....I dont know, maybe I'm naive, but thats kind of a big deal to people. Im sure the same thing happens to people that go to BD or Cavies. Do those 3 have the best statistical chance of winning any given year?....sure, but they also have the best chance of being holy-crap-thats-so-insane-its-legendary each year as well. For someone that can only afford to march DCI 1 more time, there really is no other choice if you want that experience. Pretty much without exception, the reason people in 2005 in my corps were happy after finals wasn't because we got a piece of metal....they were happy because we were freaking AWESOME. I dont know, maybe it sounds like the same thing to some, but to me, those reasons dont sound like ring chasing to me. Chasing history, tradition, excellence?....finding the best fit, going where you always dreamed?....yeah. Ring chasing?...not so much... Oh, and I have more reasons, but i think this is enough for now -------- disclaimer - I recognize that ring chasers DO exist, but by and large they are few in number, and not really indicative of the general mobility of the dci populace. Additionally, I recognize that there is also a TON of value to be had in other kinds of marching experiences, and am in no way trying to put those down. Thank you, and good night /win. I agree with you almost all the time. Except when you say the Cadets should have beaten Crown in 09. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shostahoosier Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 gotcha....i see your point now and have no disagreements It bothers you??? I think you read a little too much into my choice of words... I was saying that as sarcasm - the fact is, that even if the Mandarins have an amazing run, it's not going to affect the cadets in any way shape or form. Its not like football...the Mandarins cant put together a beautiful touchdown drive to start the game, and then come out and play defense against them. They do their show, Cadets do their show. The fact is that in all three (or 4) phases of brass, percussion, guard, and visual, the cadets show is going to be written and performed at a much higher level, due to the talent of the members and instruction. To give an example - Look at the one Mikey talked about above, when we beat Phantom at a show in 06 where we had an awful run. Literally about a 3rd of the drum break fell apart, and we still won. Consider, we had been beating phantom all year to that point, but was that really fair??>....maybe not, but consider this. Regiment was still their typical early season form....aka, kind of a wreck. We may have had a rough section music ensemble-wise, but the brass werent playing, and it didnt affect the guard as far as I know. So 2 judges maybe docked us major points (perhaps 3) - out of 8 or 9.....for a small part of the show. At the time, we still played better, marched better, spun better, and had a better designed show than them ...for the time being. Was it wrong that we won?? We all know how they year came out....Phantom got their act together and wound up beating us by 4 points....but they werent ready to do it yet at that june show. Their usual early season show design and performance issues were there, and they got judged accordingly. The fact is that 'bad shows' as seen by the audience are usually based on a fall, or a bad release or two, and while judges consider these things, it's only a small part. I still go back to my original post in this thread, and one that others have brought up. Which night specifically should PC have beaten BD? When did Academy get screwed at a show against SCV? What year should Troopers taken down the Cadets? All this talk is lovely in practice, but the people most up in arms are arguing about a supposedly unfair system with 0 evidence, and its starting to show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 gotcha....i see your point now and have no disagreements Umm...ok, cool (sorry, not used to people saying things like that on DCP) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 /win.I agree with you almost all the time. Except when you say the Cadets should have beaten Crown in 09. Haha...i'm not so sure anymore. I've seen cadets finals vid, still waiting on crown to compare the two... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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