When did all the fun get sucked out of the activity?

[Musical_Spinner]

The bigger the guard the more you can get away with that walking crap. I watched it in 2006 SW class on fan network the other day and was wondering what was with all the walking.

Walking/running is being rewarded too often just because it is clean. Isn't part of open and world class to layer body on equipment as they move around the floor? WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT!?

Edited February 16, 2010 by Musical_Spinner

[Musical_Spinner]

I like color guard. I still think it's good.

I think it's good/great/amazing!

[SBrancheau]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes:

I got lost sometime along the way. Guard started being more about dance, floor tarps, props, themes and costumes and less about equipment work. Don't get me wrong, those things are fine, but I guess I want the equipment work to tell me about the music, not everything else.

I guess I'm old school...I like my flag pole gripped at the bottom of the pole, instead of the bottom 1/4 (looks neater), I like hands tucked to the waist when tossing equipment (looks neater), instead of flailing around in the air waiting for the equipment to come down. I think that adds difficulty to the toss, to be honest. Anybody can have their hands up in the rotation space, but how many groups can honestly toss, tuck the hands and catch cleanly?

Yes, yes, I know that things must evolve to grow. I understand that. And I probably should go see some shows. Perhaps I will this year.

[deftguy]

I am with Sally and Will on this. The level of esoterica(not the creme folks) in show design leaves me scratching my head at exactly what is supposed to be communicated to me. It is either that, or I do not know what I am looking at

The problem with WGI is the same problem with DCI, the judges come first, the fans come second, instead of just creating a fan friendly clean show. One person on the DCI part of DCP wanted to know why he could not create the show HE wanted to do without being scored poorly.(He wanted to field a show with no amplification, slower tempos, and G horns). The answer to that question boiled down to having to play to the judges sheets, and that is the same problem we have here. Playing to the judges sheets stifles REAL creativity, and causes a sort of show homogenation that makes everyone look pretty much the same, hence the boredom. If I have to follow a set of pre-determined guidlines, then there is no way to create a truly unique show, because lets face it, guidlines create finites, not infinites.

I asked the same question here as the DCI poster asked about DCI. Why cannot I create a show that just gets judges based on the merits of its execution and performance. The response I got back was simular to what the poster on DCP DCI side.

I quit teaching guard in 1996 because my kids really wanted to do a different kind of show than what they saw around them, but they couldn't do it without meeting certain show design guidlines, which essentially made our shows look like everyone elses. While our shows were very exciting to the crowds, very clean and well executed, because we didn't follow the design guildlines we continually were scored low. This was frustrating for them, and for myself, so they decided that WGI and their local guard circuit was not for them. That was a shame, because these kids were not just good, they were great performers with great skills.

While I completely understand that many here really like WGI the way it is, you really must respect the opinions of those who don't. Some people encourage all kinds of changes, and some think that not all changes are healthy for the activity. Do blow somebody else opinion off with the words "I disagree". When this is done, you are invalidating someone elses opinion in favor of yours. Just offer your own supporting comments, and let the dissenters stand on its own.

[ATXguard]

I am with Sally and Will on this. The level of esoterica(not the creme folks) in show design leaves me scratching my head at exactly what is supposed to be communicated to me. It is either that, or I do not know what I am looking at

The problem with WGI is the same problem with DCI, the judges come first, the fans come second, instead of just creating a fan friendly clean show. One person on the DCI part of DCP wanted to know why he could not create the show HE wanted to do without being scored poorly.(He wanted to field a show with no amplification, slower tempos, and G horns). The answer to that question boiled down to having to play to the judges sheets, and that is the same problem we have here. Playing to the judges sheets stifles REAL creativity, and causes a sort of show homogenation that makes everyone look pretty much the same, hence the boredom. If I have to follow a set of pre-determined guidlines, then there is no way to create a truly unique show, because lets face it, guidlines create finites, not infinites.

I asked the same question here as the DCI poster asked about DCI. Why cannot I create a show that just gets judges based on the merits of its execution and performance. The response I got back was simular to what the poster on DCP DCI side.

I quit teaching guard in 1996 because my kids really wanted to do a different kind of show than what they saw around them, but they couldn't do it without meeting certain show design guidlines, which essentially made our shows look like everyone elses. While our shows were very exciting to the crowds, very clean and well executed, because we didn't follow the design guildlines we continually were scored low. This was frustrating for them, and for myself, so they decided that WGI and their local guard circuit was not for them. That was a shame, because these kids were not just good, they were great performers with great skills.

While I completely understand that many here really like WGI the way it is, you really must respect the opinions of those who don't. Some people encourage all kinds of changes, and some think that not all changes are healthy for the activity. Do blow somebody else opinion off with the words "I disagree". When this is done, you are invalidating someone elses opinion in favor of yours. Just offer your own supporting comments, and let the dissenters stand on its own.

You know... people... you CAN have it both ways. really. it's possible. Cleanliness, talented performers, an interesting show, AND write/teach according to the sheets. Honestly! I mean it!

[byline]

There's a part of me that agrees with Will, Sally and deftguy, but there's also a part of me that still enjoys color guard. However, I don't find myself drawn to it as much as I used to be, either. But maybe that's just age. Dunno. I do miss some of the laugh-out-loud shows that used to be the norm for many guards. When everyone is trying to be esoteric, it just ain't that special anymore.

[ItsOnTheField]

You know... people... you CAN have it both ways. really. it's possible. Cleanliness, talented performers, an interesting show, AND write/teach according to the sheets. Honestly! I mean it!

100% completely agree! At the same time it seems that if someone does not like a show or does not understand it they tend to automatically go into the "its all about the judges and not the fans" mode. Everyone has different tastes and just because I may not like one show does not mean that others are not entertained and are enjoying it.

I feel like my post should be in the DCP "Cliche" thread lol

[ATXguard]

I guess to compare to DCI:

Anyone remember the Glassmen Beethoven show from a few years ago? I thought it was AMAZING! Great concept, very unique approach to the music, guard work, etc. Yet, even hardcore Glassmen fans I know thought it was awful.

Does that mean it wasn't entertaining? To some, perhaps, but to me, it's my fave Glassmen show.

It's kind of insulting to many guards to hear the language on this board that we don't care bout the fans or are only going for the points. Well, part of this activity IS about going for the points and succeeding based on the criteria established for you.

Part of strategic plans for your future is to care about the fans-- that's where you pick up future performers and supporters.

Part of the creation process is doing something you find interesting and meaningful, whether others agree with it or not, but to say that because you don't like it that the people who created it only care about 5 people in the stands who put down a number is highly insulting to most, if not all groups out there!

Not that it matters. But I hope you'll at least take another look at what you're saying to others who are still active in this field :-) You know, in case your words begin to suck the fun out of the activity.

Love y'all! Great discussions in here!!

[SPINCYCLE]

I agree with all said BUT lets not forget we are in a judged activity and if you chose not to follow the sheets no matter what you choose to do can there be success.......Do some choose not to follow a sheet as a guide ..sure but also remember class, and criteria, expectations of a class will matter if score is what you are looking for or a finals spot. If this doesnt matter to you have a ball :-)

[deftguy]

I guess to compare to DCI:

Anyone remember the Glassmen Beethoven show from a few years ago? I thought it was AMAZING! Great concept, very unique approach to the music, guard work, etc. Yet, even hardcore Glassmen fans I know thought it was awful.

Does that mean it wasn't entertaining? To some, perhaps, but to me, it's my fave Glassmen show.

I want to broaden your scope just a bit. Sit down and think for just a moment how many guards out there shows absolutely drive you to throw babies, dollar bills, and undergarments? For me in the 1980's too many to mention, in the 1990's too few to mention, and in the 2000"s, even less than the 90's. Some shows illicit thrills and chills, others the thought of taking deadly pills afterward it was over. The"I don't get it" factor kicks in, and you have lost your audience. There is also the concept of does this show fit the personality of this group, hence why you enjoyed the Glassmen show, and while other probably thought it was boring(like I have of many Glassmen shows)

It's kind of insulting to many guards to hear the language on this board that we don't care bout the fans or are only going for the points. Well, part of this activity IS about going for the points and succeeding based on the criteria established for you.

Before you get this bent and twisted, this thread is more about the designers and creators, not the performers. The performers are doing what they are given to do. It is up to them to sell it to the audience. Sometimes the show is not sell-able for various reason mostly related to the concept of the show. Shows these days are too serious, to high minded artistically, and in some cases just too strange. Not enough designers are going for humor and light hearted-ness in their show concepts, so almost every show looks like an attempt at recreating the Joffrey Ballet or the work of Balanchine rather than just entertaining us. Part of the problem is trying to play to the "sheets" rather than the audience.

Part of strategic plans for your future is to care about the fans-- that's where you pick up future performers and supporters.

Here is a reality. Not all of your supporters are dance or performance majors. So if you really care about the fans, give them a show that is entertaining and fun to watch, not something that requires a degree in performance art and dance. If your audience has to think too much, they are probably not going to be as entertained as they would if they are smiling, wowing, laughing, and "getting" what you are doing.

Part of the creation process is doing something you find interesting and meaningful, whether others agree with it or not, but to say that because you don't like it that the people who created it only care about 5 people in the stands who put down a number is highly insulting to most, if not all groups out there!

Two prong response here. You are correct, part of the process is finding something that is interesting and meaningful. But it also must be accessible to your audience as well. If you take the stance that you are going to create something whether the audience agrees, or likes it, then you will lose your audience because the enjoyment factor becomes singular rather than plural. Just like your Glassmen example, if a show is great to you, but awful to many, then the show is not very good because it should not be about one person's enjoyment, it should be about the enjoyment of many.

Both DCI and WGI has a major case of performing to the judges syndrome. This stifles the entertainment value, as it does not allow you to create a show that actually reaches the majority of your audience. Dance and performance majors may be totally satisfied with what they see, but what about those who are not dance and performance majors? They are left scratching their collective heads. I think part of the problem may lie in the fact that both sides of the activity have pre-set performance requirements, instead of just letting a creator or designer put up a show free of those constraints, and just letting the show get scored based on its own merits.(or lacks)

Not that it matters. But I hope you'll at least take another look at what you're saying to others who are still active in this field :-) You know, in case your words begin to suck the fun out of the activity.

This is a major problem with the activity, it is called censure. Every single time a dissenting opinion that goes against the acceptable norm is posted, you get the complimentary "don't say anything against the activity, it hurts the kids feelings". Here is my response to that, grow up, and develop a thicker skin. If you are going to be a designer or performer, be ready for criticism, because everyone does not like everything. A huge part of being a performer is to be able to take the good with the bad, and that is from a performance and evaluation perspective.

A couple of points here. When I was a kid, I spent a great deal of time treading behind my four Uncles who were either sound engineers, or a sound designers on off and on Broadway plays in New York. A Broadway audience can be extremely brutal in their criticism if they don't like something, or they don't get it. In that time, I saw many an actor or director get reduced to rubble behind a review, or the comments of the audience upon leaving the venue. I also heard many a show producer tell them if they can't take it, leave, as it is as much apart of the activity and the performance is.

In 1983 our guards semi-finals performance was terrible. When we got off the floor, Steve read us from Amazing Grace to a floating opportunity(now that a brutal reading!). What he said would have killed the spirit of most performers, but it energized us, and our finals performance we killed. Performers have to take criticism and turn it into a great performance.

WGI and DCI are suffering from a generational displacement dysfunction that is killing the overall growth of both activities. It is very important in "niche" activities such as these to build UPON your audience by designing shows that appeal to both the old school and the new school. Both DCI and WGI have made the decision that the old school can be sacrificed in favor of attracting a newer audience with newer concepts. The only thing this decision is going to do is maintain a constant year to year audience, but will do nothing to "grow" it. Perhaps ditching the set criteria for show design, and just allowing a designer to start from a clean non-criteria slate would encourage them to mix some of the new with the old, which will appeal to audiences of all generations.