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The Dayton Drama


PrfctTimeOfDay

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I saw MANY people taking photos in Dayton over the weekend. And some of them had much larger cameras than yours. And I also LOVE your show reviews. I would miss them if you stopped. Your reviews are very positive and accurate..please don't give up.

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...

All of this is very perplexing, if not also a little bit disheartening.

What a disappointing experience, to say the least.

I'd be willing to bet that there must have been some type of an unfortunate incident (i.e., LOUD and unpleasant incident) with a fan elsewhere at the venue during the competition. Otherwise, it seems odd that WGI would be so aggressive and persistent about clamping down on anyone who was pointing any kind of "video equipment" in the direction of the performance area.

But even in the aftermath of such an incident, the WGI policy on photography clearly states: "Family, friends and fans may take still photos of WGI events for personal use only. The images may not be sold or otherwise distributed or publicly displayed without the written permission of Winter Guard International."

So, go know anything, right...???

And I, too, agree that the confusion at this competition does NOT reflect in any way on the staff/volunteers of Miamisburg High School. They're a class act all the way around. Always. They were only following through on instructions that were being given to them by WGI.

Hopefully, the still photography conundrum will be straightened out before this type of thing happens again at other WGI events.

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Okay.... don't flame me... I'm just trying to think this one through....

It wasn't too long ago I was instructing, and always in the line of fire from parents. I have to say, there is a great deal of sensitivity around this issue and here's why.....

Although what you were doing was perfectly innocent and you were intending to do a great thing for all of us spectators who can't be there, .....there ARE people out there who (let's face it)..... we don't want photographing our children. I wonder if WGI felt the need to make it a blanket rule, in an effort to keep away the "weirdos." ???? If so, I'm just sorry that it also keeps away the good work that you are doing in covering these events.

If that's the case, WGI should put it in writing (if they haven't already), so that the policy is better understood and consistently upheld.

What a world we live in when we have to be so vigilent. I'm sorry it hurts the review process.... :(

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I like the idea of the competing units owning the 'content' of their shows, and not the sanctioning body. I realize that would lead to the downfall of WGI, DCI, the NFL, MLB, yes and the so-called civilized world as we know it, however I'm just throwing it out there.

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Drama.

How about some mid-season faux drama; in the form of yet another list.

Field&Floor's Fifty guards to watch for

I am. :smile:

Edited by David Hill
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RE: The original Dayton Drama

Well . . back in the '60's they would let me stroll into rock concerts covered with cameras - but not now. All such things are now licensed for a stiff fee. It's unfortunate but probably inevitable that WGI and most local circuits have eventually followed suit. I'm glad to be relieved of having to do photo chores at shows - I much prefer to just watch - but I'm a bit amused by the conflicts arising from these license agreements in the digital age. This "drama" sounds completely attributable to still photo and video licensees complaining to WGI about unlicensed still shots and video clips flooding internet and facebook sites and undercutting the sales of their licensed images. WGI relies heavily on selling video's of performances or viewing access to them for revenue and can't at all be pleased by seeing video's of regional performances showing up on YouTube (for free!) much quicker than for-pay WGI video's appear on FanNetwork. There were video's of individual group prelim performances at Dayton on internet sites by early Saturday night - not yours, of course, but produced and uploaded by proud parents unmolested by WGI officialdom - well, yet anyway.

This fuss sounds like someone highly aware and sensitive about WGI's declining video sales spotting you (or someone else that WGI staff mistook you for) in the audience and "alerting the authorities" - usually a cameraman or crew member, but given your particular equipment it might have been someone with a lot less technical knowledge. You were probably a somewhat conspicuous sitting target by taking photos of every unit and sitting through the whole show, which is quite a bit more exposed to the authorities than typical parents who only grab shots of one performance and often leave. And, given your clear unobstructed shots of the whole performance area, I suspect you were even more conspicuous sitting away from other spectators whose heads would get in the way. If you were taking notes after each performance on top of that, you might as well have had a target on your back.

I'm not making excuses for the weird behavior of meddlesome officials, just offering some plausible motives. I think that WGI is attempting the impossible - trying to maintain exclusive control of content distribution while still allowing "amateur" photography. Given the already impressive high-resolution still and video capabilities of even amateur-appearing cameras today and the almost universal behavior of parents and children posting the stuff on free internet sites, it's patently un-doable. If WGI banned all cameras (like almost all other entertainment venues) it would at least be a relatively clear and somewhat enforcible rule, and they might (slim chance) buttress their monopoly revenues for a short while (unlikely). It's possible that WGI might go to that, but ultimately I think they will only have a successful business plan by drastically chopping their prices and emulating Itunes - something like $1 for a HD guard performance video (download, not just viewing) or still photo. They would probably get a huge increase in sales volume and have a revenue stream that would GROW over time instead of shrinking.

In the meantime, other weird stuff is occurring in local circuits. Still-photo firms with exclusive licenses are complaining loudly about kids lifting proof-shot images from their websites and posting them on facebook, etc. Even if you buy legitimate prints at $7-10 a pop, you still have no right to post them anywhere because all duplication or publishing rights remain with the photographer or firm. Trying to enforce such things will ultimately be another fool's errand. The organizations and photo-firms effected do not have the political or legal clout of the huge multi-national recording industry and nobody is going to go after facebook, YouTube, etc. (who actually are large multi-national corporations) and their subscribers the way they went after low-budget music file-sharing sites and their users. The circuits and firms need to work out a different business plan, something that includes much lower prices and routing sales through the unit organizations with lots of profit incentives for them to encourage sales. Parents and kids usually want their units to make more money, but frequently have opposite feelings about their circuit and its concessionaires.

So . . . sorry you got hassled. I've been there many times and it always gets my blood boiling and ruins my day. Thanks for hanging in there and keeping up the reviews.

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I like the idea of the competing units owning the 'content' of their shows, and not the sanctioning body. I realize that would lead to the downfall of WGI, DCI, the NFL, MLB, yes and the so-called civilized world as we know it, however I'm just throwing it out there.

You can like it. It does seem fair, but it's not true, and not possible unless the attempted owner of the so called choreography copyright registers visually (such as by videotape registration) and count by count details with the correct government agencies, they can make no claims against reproduction, (someone over at the drum corps forum has covered this in depth) and there is one more big point.

If said dance company piece were to change any aspect of the production, such as a color or steps after all the trouble of registration, the new art with changes would have to be registered all over again. and with instructors changing counts so often as hourly, you can see the piece is only artistically a single entity or secure in one form until a count is changed the next day. Change a shade of a painting, and it is not protected. It's not fair, but it's the way it works.

Reproduce a sculpture in a different medium and change the size or position of a finger, and it's not protected. Put streamers on the flag of Belgium, and you have one of the most copied basic flags ever. Mr Zingales family and the 27th lancers would have appreciated all that money.

All this chat about intellectual property in regard to horns, drums, silks and banners sounds nice and fair, but it's so far from real. If a company front could have been protected, and everyone who used it after that had to pay, what a lovely thought, but not happening. If the photography or filming of that company front also required some sort of "permission" from someone, there are enough lawyers around drum corps we would have seen it.

It's the music used that requires licensing and permission. It stops there. Everytime I see flag artwork I know where the started, I wish the original designers of that art could get credit or cash. There's a reason it's not happening. Artists must register their art to be protected. I have some trademarks and art registered, that's how I know. It's easy to claim, and near impossible to actually protect. Where is the respect for these small business owners expenses to send out employees to photograph, pay for equipment, websites, marketing and customer service to even provide these services? Athletic photography at the school level owes no money to coaches or players, but frequently there may be donations. Imagine a football coach demanding a cut of the game video proceeds because he "designed the uniform".

Having said all that, the review you wrote were really good, and to have those amazing photos right there, I want to thank whoever is doing that. I don't even know how to make things have photos or links in these postings. I hope you are able to keep sharing.

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I agree. I think photographers are missing out on HUGE opportunities. Instead of selling prints for $13/each, why don't they sell the low-res version for $3? Or, our photographer used to offer all images he took for each unit on a CD at the end of the season for $40, which I gladly paid, but now he doesn't do that anymore because he wants to make more money on individual prints. You're going to chase a ghost trying to get everything pulled down from the internet. Seems like we're losing focus of what's really important - THIS ACTIVITY IS FOR THE KIDS. Maybe we don't have any Jolesch or local photographers do action shots? Maybe they just do group photos.

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while i understand your issue with wgi and not letting you take your pictures, wouldn't the use of the pictures you were taking going against wgi's policy?? just a thought.......

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I agree. I think photographers are missing out on HUGE opportunities. Instead of selling prints for $13/each, why don't they sell the low-res version for $3? Or, our photographer used to offer all images he took for each unit on a CD at the end of the season for $40, which I gladly paid, but now he doesn't do that anymore because he wants to make more money on individual prints. You're going to chase a ghost trying to get everything pulled down from the internet. Seems like we're losing focus of what's really important - THIS ACTIVITY IS FOR THE KIDS. Maybe we don't have any Jolesch or local photographers do action shots? Maybe they just do group photos.

Although I would agree with you ....the business side says, business is business. You say , the Activity is for the kids...well so is cheering....baseball...plays....soccer...Algy...FJM.....KIng.....Dynasty........

I can keep going. These businesses all support kids activities BUT why do they have to work harder to make a buck or even alot of bucks because its a KIDS activity. I can feel on both sides of this and believe me i want the bargin also BUT you cant balme a business owner for wanting to make what they feel they are worth . If WE dont like what we have to spend then we dont have to buy BUT especially these uniforms places to say they have made MILLIONS would be an understatement.....lol

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