Has your view of DCI changed lately ?

[BigW]

"They rankle me".... oh that Central PA way of speaking.... At least no one said "Suck with a capital S" but that was more of a drumline thing.

Thanks for the laugh buddy....

Quite welcome!

And believe me-- When I went to college to become an educator, I realized I had to clean up my act after 6 years of DCA. I worked really hard at choosing words carefully so I didn't end up drug in front of a School board over casually dropping a 15 megaton F-Bomb.

So, yeah, I have become very careful, thank goodness.

I'm glad I defused a bit of what's going down. But there is one serious question, besides whether I can get the one girl to play the contra-kazoo in my corps that will get a Standing O every time we go out--

Where does the line end up that the art form is no longer "Drum and Bugle Corps" and something else entirely different? I think after 40 years that we might be getting closer to that line if we use that seminal 1971 season in Junior Corps as a yard maker to deliniate the first big shift in paradigms. Some people are speaking up now that things aren't right, some more elequently than others, and it's all good. Some people also argue it's okay for things to go down this path, and that's their right too though I find many of their arguments specious- not all of them, many of them.

The line will be different for everyone. No two individuals will agree on where that is. The next question will be what kind of person will go to a show once that line is crossed (I have some guesses as to who) and whether enough of them will make the activity financially viable or even a performing art that's worthwhile enough to appreciate.

Edited April 29, 2010 by BigW

[dcpincollector]

You're really saying this? After all the digs you made towards DCA in the DCI forum and in this forum? Really?

*ahem"

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I never made any digs at DCA. If you read what I said you will see that I am correct. The only "dig" I made was saying that if you wanted to see the ultimate in drum corps (execution/ pagentry etc.) you had to look at DCI. DCA corps could not outscore a top DCI corps. This is a fact that no one has denied. The reasons are many (practice time/ amount of shows etc.) but nobody can deny this. This is the ONLY "dig" I made of DCA.

In fact on numerous occasions I stated that I liked DCA. Read the posts!

Some people have really thin skin and see anything contrary to their opinion to be an attack. I hope that you are not one of these people.

[dcpincollector]

"We should all band together to support drum corps"....

We can also all be blind fools that readily accept and slavishly lap up everything that's thrown our way as valid.

I would believe that we all agree this activity is a performing art.

As an art, it can be subject to criticism. It *should* be subject to criticism! In fact, because of its competitve nature, it's held up to a very exacting and insanely thorough criticism.

I find the "How dare you say anything negative because you're divisive and a hater!" crowd to be tiresome and sad. They rankle me.

We all agree it's not the performers that cause the problems and the criticism that's frequently leveled. As a performer, all they can do is perform the bejeezus out of what is given them to perform to finish as high as they can. People have a right to criticize and react positively or negatively to a given program. Otherwise, we end up never knowing how genuine any reaction to what we do is! I for one would NOT want to stand on the sideline at the end of any contest and even think in the back of my head that the crowd applause and reaction is because they applauded regardless of what they really thought about the program but felt obliged to cheer and clap to make me feel good. How empty, unsatisfying, and shallow that would be. Why bother hitting the field at that point.

What this individual is telling all of us is effectively this:

We all go out for fine dining, spend some serious bucks and are then told what we ordered or expected isn't what we'll get, and we end up with some kind of pretentious chunk of carved tofu on a mulit-grain bun artistically surrounded by parsley and colorful flakes of some kind of plant matter instead of that 22 ounce juicy prime rib we expected to get and paid for several months before we showed up. And, for the sake of not hurting the cook's feelings or the establishment's management, we should shut up and eat to support them and the waiter and waitresses, who incidentally did provide fantastic and very courteous service, who are, by the way, quite faultless for what the management and cook did.

I'm tired of the touchy people who can't stand any form of criticism of their art and try and use the performers as their shield to protect themselves from any negative comments, no matter how well thought out or not those criticisms may be. Toughen up. If what you believe in as art is valid, that art will rise to the top, especially in this environment. A lot of it hasn't risen to the top from what I'm observing. If someone wishes to try and ram what they think is valid up everyone's nostrils and it's still not accepted, it is certainly their right to keep ramming away, but maybe they shouldn't expect or demand a blind, slavering positive audience reaction to their art, nor should they expect a high placement when it all shakes out at the end.

All I know is this. Many folks are making it clear with their wallets in many different areas about what they would like to see at a contest. It seems to be the only way some of these pretentious folks who dish out the tofu to their unwilling eaters because they think that's what they should feed us will finally listen and serve up the steak.

One more thought for the madding crowd before I leave--How about I bust out a kazoo and hum some Wagner into a mike on the sideline while I mark time wearing a tinfoil hat while I get someone else to smack a pie tin with a stick while they march around behind me and I call it "drum corps" while I'm at it and expect everyone to enthusiastically support my artistic endeavor that I have worked so hard on creating unquestioningly. I want that standing O, baby! That's kind of where that kind of 'accept everything and support it unquestioningly' attitude is angling towards- isn't it?

It's late. I worked hard tonight, come home and read this, and well, I just felt the need to speak up as politely as anyone can at 345AM after their jaw hits the floor rerading that silliness. And... I hope a few people laughed at the Kazoo thing. One heck of an image, huh?

If you don't want to support the activity....don't.

If you want to live in the past....go ahead.

If you want to scream your criticisms so that everyone can hear....go ahead.

If you have an opinion.....great.

Just remember that I also have an opinion.

If you want to critize DCI....go ahead.

If you want to speak with your wallets...do it.

What would you do if it were gone?

I would be heartbroken.

[BigW]

What would I do if it were gone?

Go to museums, concerts, and sporting events like I have been doing, sir. Again- heaven forbid anyone criticise or join in lock-step to support something that perhaps we see as moving some directions that are not healthy. Blind and unswerving affection such as yours isn't healthy.

As we see now with what's been going on for a bit here in the US, "Change" is not always good. "Change for the sake of change" can be extremely misguided and insanely foolish. It can also provide great success for the right risk-takers with the *right* ideas for change and innovation rather than just doing things for the sheer sake of 'change'. I see many DCI units trying that route, and they're not reaching to their core audience because it's seen by that audience as a foolish kind of change rather than thoughtful and exciting change that provides a real enhancement to the arena of ideas and artistry the activity is and can be. I'd think twice about the accusation about "living in the past". It's a typical statement casually thrown out by the 'accept everyting or else' crowd. Disregard for tradition and history in this activity usually results in at best a medicore result and the fans wondering what the heck is going on on the field and a nice golf clap for the corps when all is said and done. And no, I and most people who criticize or question are not sitting here asking people go back to Piston-Rotor horns (which I did play and have no nostalgic feeling for, by the way, they were awful) and to perform symmetrical drill and high-step 8 to 5 like you would like to accuse us of wanting the activity to return to. No.

There's been a lot of positive innovation in the activity. I attended Clinics by George Zingali in 1984 when he effected brilliant and innovative changes. Those changes were very, very carefully thought out by him at an extreme level. They worked. What he created then was the basis for the modern visual vocabulary of the activity. They re-defined the acitvity in a way just about everyone bought into. Lately, the well's ran dry in that area, and creative staffs at times seem to be grabbing at straws for something- anything new and different that might get them some success rather than really making total sense as art. There are some DCA units that might stand 'guilty as charged' there as well. People aren't buying into a lot of the stuff going on now and for good reasons. It's not exciting at times. It can be very homogenous. It starts to look much the same and sound the same for many units, over and over. The groups who have a distinct and individual flavor tend to do a lot better and evoke powerful crowd reactions. That falls under 'tradition'-- something us old fogies who are supposedly out of touch usually value. PR takes a very close look at those things when they develop program, by the way. Is it any coincidence that they usually elicit strong crowd reactions as a result of that?

If the activity went under- it's not my fault that the big business that it has become failed to be attentive and responsive to the needs and desires of its dedicated and loyal customer base. If a business fails to do that- it will fail, and it shouldn't be propped up for the sake of propping it up. Customers have tried speaking up and get responses much like yours. Shut up and take the product as offered without any criticsms or negative vibes because we know what's best for you. Otherwise, you'll kill our business.

That's not good customer relations, is it? You're not going to win hearts and minds with that attitude. You lose them. We older folks have more buying power. I can go to a show and not worry about buying a couple shirts and caps now. And I did at Scranton. When I was a young buck, it meant I'd prolly eat hush puppies and a small coke for dinner after the show instead of a meal when I hit the souvie stand.

Being transparent and responsive to the needs of your customers on every level (i.e. the corps and their fans) is what will guarantee success for the activity regardless of what three letters are used.

Attitudes like yours with the "go ahead and leave you old fart and keep living in your past, take it or leave it because what we do is valid and you're just stupid and old" are the real divisive ones, not ones that call things into question when they don't make sense or make the customer think they'd rather spend the money heading to an IndyCar race or the National Air and Space Museum instead of a corps contest because they get far more entertainment value and intellectual stimulation for the time and money spent.

Provide me with real answers to the problems instead of whining, ducking the issues, and telling me and others that we're old and backward and to stay locked in our log cabins with the dirt floors, huh? A lot of us 'old' folks are pretty well educated and out there doing a lot of good in a lot of ways you might not even imagine for the activity *and* are very open to 'change' and innovation when it makes artistic *sense* and it works! And when it does, we know how to yell and cheer for a corps, too.

Edited April 29, 2010 by BigW

[Ray Priester]

What would I do if it were gone?

Go to museums, concerts, and sporting events like I have been doing, sir. Again- heaven forbid anyone criticise or join in lock-step to support something that perhaps we see as moving some directions that are not healthy. Blind and unswerving affection such as yours isn't healthy.

As we see now with what's been going on for a bit here in the US, "Change" is not always good. "Change for the sake of change" can be extremely misguided and insanely foolish. It can also provide great success for the right risk-takers with the *right* ideas for change and innovation rather than just doing things for the sheer sake of 'change'. I see many DCI units trying that route, and they're not reaching to their core audience because it's seen by that audience as a foolish kind of change rather than thoughtful and exciting change that provides a real enhancement to the arena of ideas and artistry the activity is and can be. I'd think twice about the accusation about "living in the past". It's a typical statement casually thrown out by the 'accept everyting or else' crowd. Disregard for tradition and history in this activity usually results in at best a medicore result and the fans wondering what the heck is going on on the field and a nice golf clap for the corps when all is said and done. And no, I and most people who criticize or question are not sitting here asking people go back to Piston-Rotor horns (which I did play and have no nostalgic feeling for, by the way, they were awful) and to perform symmetrical drill and high-step 8 to 5 like you would like to accuse us of wanting the activity to return to. No.

There's been a lot of positive innovation in the activity. I attended Clinics by George Zingali in 1984 when he effected brilliant and innovative changes. Those changes were very, very carefully thought out by him at an extreme level. They worked. What he created then was the basis for the modern visual vocabulary of the activity. They re-defined the acitvity in a way just about everyone bought into. Lately, the well's ran dry in that area, and creative staffs at times seem to be grabbing at straws for something- anything new and different that might get them some success rather than really making total sense as art. There are some DCA units that might stand 'guilty as charged' there as well. People aren't buying into a lot of the stuff going on now and for good reasons. It's not exciting at times. It can be very homogenous. It starts to look much the same and sound the same for many units, over and over. The groups who have a distinct and individual flavor tend to do a lot better and evoke powerful crowd reactions. That falls under 'tradition'-- something us old fogies who are supposedly out of touch usually value. PR takes a very close look at those things when they develop program, by the way. Is it any coincidence that they usually elicit strong crowd reactions as a result of that?

If the activity went under- it's not my fault that the big business that it has become failed to be attentive and responsive to the needs and desires of its dedicated and loyal customer base. If a business fails to do that- it will fail, and it shouldn't be propped up for the sake of propping it up. Customers have tried speaking up and get responses much like yours. Shut up and take the product as offered without any criticsms or negative vibes because we know what's best for you. Otherwise, you'll kill our business.

That's not good customer relations, is it? You're not going to win hearts and minds with that attitude. You lose them. We older folks have more buying power. I can go to a show and not worry about buying a couple shirts and caps now. And I did at Scranton. When I was a young buck, it meant I'd prolly eat hush puppies and a small coke for dinner after the show instead of a meal when I hit the souvie stand.

Being transparent and responsive to the needs of your customers on every level (i.e. the corps and their fans) is what will guarantee success for the activity regardless of what three letters are used.

Attitudes like yours with the "go ahead and leave you old fart and keep living in your past, take it or leave it because what we do is valid and you're just stupid and old" are the real divisive ones, not ones that call things into question when they don't make sense or make the customer think they'd rather spend the money heading to an IndyCar race or the National Air and Space Museum instead of a corps contest because they get far more entertainment value and intellectual stimulation for the time and money spent.

Provide me with real answers to the problems instead of whining, ducking the issues, and telling me and others that we're old and backward and to stay locked in our log cabins with the dirt floors, huh? A lot of us 'old' folks are pretty well educated and out there doing a lot of good in a lot of ways you might not even imagine for the activity *and* are very open to 'change' and innovation when it makes artistic *sense* and it works! And when it does, we know how to yell and cheer for a corps, too.

Now THAT was a well thought out and meaningful response. Thank you sir.

Ray

Just another 'olde pharte'

[pearlsnaredrummer77]

When I marched I enjoyed DCI and I did as a fan for a few years afterward. However, that relationship has recently soured.

When I marched DCI, I had friends in DCA corps and enjoyed as much of "senior" corps when I could.

Yes, my view of DCI has changed within the last year or two. Nowadays, DCI just doesn't float my boat for a seemingly infinite number of reasons including, synths, amps, guitars, music choices, the loss of an egalitarian ethos, and so on. The last DCI show I went to I did not enjoy, and was actually wishing I was doing something else. So like other interests of mine that I no longer enjoy, I no longer patronize DCI. Who knows maybe I will again some day, (if DCI revisits the instrumentation policy at the minimum) but right now, as DCI exists today, I am disinterested. No disrespect to the performers. It's Just not my cup of tea...

I go to as many DCA shows as possible. I still get the thrill at DCA events, so I will be a DCA/Alumni fan for the forseeable future.

[JimF-LowBari]

The last DCI show I went to I did not enjoy, and was actually wishing I was doing something else. So like other interests of mine that I no longer enjoy, I no longer patronize DCI. Who knows maybe I will again some day, (if DCI revisits the instrumentation policy at the minimum) but right now, as DCI exists today, I am disinterested. No disrespect to the performers. It's Just not my cup of tea...

I didn't know I had another personality that posted under this name.

Exactly the feelings I had/have but my feelings changed in the mid-90s. And after 15+ years I was pretty burned out from tons of Drum Corps. On top of that I was in my mid-30s with a new house, wife and other responsibilities. So along with other interests that I lost over the decades I figured it was time to make another change in my life. During a show I realized I was bored off my butt and had too much going on to waste time sitting in a stadium. So just walked out and never went to another corps show (DCA or DCI) for ten years. No hard feelings to DCA, DCI or anything else in general, I just figured #### changes and moved on.

Later (as life changed again) I started going back to corps shows. Took a while to get used to the new DCA style and some of those shows don't thrill me like in the past. Checked out some DCI corps in the mid 2000s and caught the first few years of amp use. As psd77 says above, it's not my cup of tea so I don't attend DCI shows. Still care about the activity and marchers but don't like the shows enough to watch. That and $5 will get you coffee at Starbucks (I think).

With that and the more detailed info I get about Drum Corps on DCP my views have changed. But not sure if you can say it has changed lately.

[Drew Wilkie]

Any drum corps is better than no drum corps. In this day and age of DCI/DCA corps folding, we should be grateful that there is still an activity to be had. Granted, one could blame it on poor management, poor creative choices, lack of audience appeal, etc. However, the real issue is trying to preserve the activity by restructuring the model to make it more affordable for 18 year-old Johnny Doe. By making drum corps financially impossible for 75% of kids, we exclude 75% of the talent pool. That, combined with the slow death of instrumental music in public schools (and on the radio), is why there are no more soloists. Less talent means designers must water down the program, opting instead to "write to the sheets". This is why the activity has become "boring".