Dissonant Music in Shows

[Tez]

are you aware that dissonant harmonies have multiple "correct" intonations?

Bad intonation from drum corps hornlines comes from player-to-player non-matching on the same notes. If you get 8 players to play concert C in tune together, and then get 8 other players to play concert B together, and then put the 16 players at the same time, you could take that minor second from equal temperament (RATIO of 2 / 2^11/12, or 1.0595), to just intonation (RATIO of 16 / 15, or 1.0667 [wider by approx 12 cents]), and others (ex, meantone temperaments), and the listener WILL HEAR IT AS IN TUNE.

Soooo...bad intonation is almost ALWAYS a function of players not matching within UNISONS. It has nothing to do with "perceived dissonance."

In fact, it's "common knowledge" in professional musical experience that says "the more people you put on the same notes [choirs, strings], the more likely it is to be perceived as in tune." This is called the "chorus effect." [look it up on wiki] Conversely, if you spread the players across more notes, it's easier to discern bad intonation, not to mention harder to play loud! This is what makes Blue Devils' brass trophies all the more remarkable, since they usually play much fuller harmonies (Jazz influence/Wayne's fancy) than the simple Western Classical Music or easy Pop Music played by almost everyone else. (Caveat: No one plays more unions and 5ths than Blue Devils...they know how to simplify for immediate effect! )

Phantom and Crown almost always sound "more in tune" than everyone else in the early season precisely because they sit on major/minor 1-3-5, super simple harmony all day/summer/winter/inception long. Have you heard Bluecoats this year? I think there's ONE loud 1-3-5 major chord in the entire show: hit in the ballad. Everything else is 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths or Mackey! That's called exposure, folks! No one in that hornline can hide! As soon as the judges figure all of this out, look out for Bloo.

You have a great point, in theory..... but I know from all my personal experience playing in professional ensembles (mostly big bands), the simple major and minor triads were the most difficult to get in tune. When my ear hears complex stacked chords, it is much more difficult to pick out individual notes, therefore there is more lee-way for slight intonation issues...... Try this.... find a piano that is slightly out of tune...... play several different Ma13(#11) chords with all the extensions..... now play several different major and minor triads...... I would bet that on the average, your ear will hear more "out-of-tune-ness" on the simple triads while the complexity of the other harmonies will mask some of it. Also, from my experience playing extremely dissonant music in Wind Ensemble, the dissonance sounded much more in tune than the chords in more tonal music we would play.

I am not trying to argue with your acoustical science... I'm just telling you the way my ear hears it. Personally, I am much more impressed when I hear a brassline hit a perfectly in tune major triad (with the third lowered just the right amount), than an "in-tune" sounding complex chord or tone cluster.

[Bruckner8]

You have a great point, in theory..... but I know from all my personal experience playing in professional ensembles (mostly big bands), the simple major and minor triads were the most difficult to get in tune. When my ear hears complex stacked chords, it is much more difficult to pick out individual notes, therefore there is more lee-way for slight intonation issues...... Try this.... find a piano that is slightly out of tune...... play several different Ma13(#11) chords with all the extensions..... now play several different major and minor triads...... I would bet that on the average, your ear will hear more "out-of-tune-ness" on the simple triads while the complexity of the other harmonies will mask some of it. Also, from my experience playing extremely dissonant music in Wind Ensemble, the dissonance sounded much more in tune than the chords in more tonal music we would play.

I am not trying to argue with your acoustical science... I'm just telling you the way my ear hears it. Personally, I am much more impressed when I hear a brassline hit a perfectly in tune major triad (with the third lowered just the right amount), than an "in-tune" sounding complex chord or tone cluster.

I know where you're going with that, and as you described it, I would probably concur. Now the question is: Why? ANS: I believe it to be the fact that we're a lot more used to hearing 1-3-5 than anything else. We haven't taken the time to REALLY Listen to all of the extensions properly, as we have with 1-3-5. It gets very complicated quickly with added notes (and that's my point earlier).

I completely agree with you, RE: Nothing's better than listening to a hornline nail it on simple major chords. Again, this is the success of corps like Crown and Phantom! They had BETTER BE GOOD, since they play the same stuff all the time, and it's much simpler than some other corps out there!

Back to major chords...you mentioned lowering the 3rd "the right amount." That amount is a precise figure (but I won't go into it now). Every note in a 7th chord, 9th, 11th, 13th...extensions, alterations....every one of them has a different "precise amount" to be tempered as well! That's where jazz bands NEVER GET IT. (And where a post-modern drum corps could do something really special.) I've only heard one big band come close, and that's because the leader was a trombone player who "gets it" on all of this stuff, and he made the band practice it, and listen to it. Most bands don't have that kind of time. Drum Corps do.

[ctrain08]

are you aware that dissonant harmonies have multiple "correct" intonations?

Bad intonation from drum corps hornlines comes from player-to-player non-matching on the same notes. If you get 8 players to play concert C in tune together, and then get 8 other players to play concert B together, and then put the 16 players at the same time, you could take that minor second from equal temperament (RATIO of 2 / 2^11/12, or 1.0595), to just intonation (RATIO of 16 / 15, or 1.0667 [wider by approx 12 cents]), and others (ex, meantone temperaments), and the listener WILL HEAR IT AS IN TUNE.

Soooo...bad intonation is almost ALWAYS a function of players not matching within UNISONS. It has nothing to do with "perceived dissonance."

In fact, it's "common knowledge" in professional musical experience that says "the more people you put on the same notes [choirs, strings], the more likely it is to be perceived as in tune." This is called the "chorus effect." [look it up on wiki] Conversely, if you spread the players across more notes, it's easier to discern bad intonation, not to mention harder to play loud! This is what makes Blue Devils' brass trophies all the more remarkable, since they usually play much fuller harmonies (Jazz influence/Wayne's fancy) than the simple Western Classical Music or easy Pop Music played by almost everyone else. (Caveat: No one plays more unions and 5ths than Blue Devils...they know how to simplify for immediate effect! )

Phantom and Crown almost always sound "more in tune" than everyone else in the early season precisely because they sit on major/minor 1-3-5, super simple harmony all day/summer/winter/inception long. Have you heard Bluecoats this year? I think there's ONE loud 1-3-5 major chord in the entire show: hit in the ballad. Everything else is 7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths or Mackey! That's called exposure, folks! No one in that hornline can hide! As soon as the judges figure all of this out, look out for Bloo.

I'm aware of the skill it takes to truly play a dissonant chord in tune. My main point is that it would not kill some of these corps to play a song with a melody once and a while. Sometimes I think corps these days are SO focused on technique that they forget that most people just want to hear something that is recognizable and audience accessible. Sure, you can spend all day referencing various performances from the past that disprove my point...but by and large I think most people would rather see a show that is somewhat familiar and memorable.

[rosski47]

DISSONANCE SUX

[FHdork]

<I think you're refering to dissonance that doesn't resolve.>

Bruckner8 is brilliant about all this stuff - it's truly amazing and I encourage everyone to learn more about the differences between equal and just intonation. With respect to the topic, the above quote is, for the ears of the average drum corps fan, the defining difference between "YUCK...DISSONANCE", and, "HECK YEAH - TOTALLY COOL".

Check out the end of the opener in Bloo's show - there you'll find a quite dissonant chord (the penultimate chord) - it 'crunches' very well - very stark. Two things make it extremely awesome: it's amazingly in tune (see Bruckner8's descriptions of building IN TUNE chords) AND, it resolves...and it does so to a relatively open 5th. There may be some people actually playing the 3rd in that chord...or, it might be just an open fifth, with the 3rd audible simply because of the amazing intonation (ie: overtones...)

When dissonance ends up leading somewhere, I think most people enjoy it more. It also gives drum corps what I feel it too often lacks: a true harmonic arrival. Drum corps fans, by and large, are not highly musically educated. So 'general effect' is better achieved by not pushing the average fan too far - too much beyond their experience level. That's why (imo) the Bluecoats and Crown shows are getting good fan reaction -

[Spirit Age-Out]

Have you even heard any orchestral music from the last 100 or 150 years? How about any wind ensemble music from the past, I don't know, 50 or 60 years? What about even drum corps for the last 20? And I'm almost entire sure the OP is talking about intonation or even the tonality of the music. Drum corps has been throwing tritones and "crunch chords" where the DO and DON'T belong for AT LEAST the past 20 years.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Spirit Age-Out

[BMBob]

I am FOR variety in drum corps, which basically means I like a lot of stuff. I LOVE dissonance. I LOVE dark shows. I LOVE melodic shows. People who need things to be recognizable, or who need shows to be classical, or jazz, or dark, or happy, or whatever to enjoy them are doing a disservice to themselves and the activity, IMO. Branch out. Learn to appreciate some other things. You cannot listen to the offerings from last year and tell me that no one played melodies or consonant shows. I mean, Cadets did WESTSIDE STORY! Crown played very little actual dissonance, especially that didn't resolve. Vanguard played Appalachian Spring. All of this is VERY tonal stuff, and recognizable. I don't see the basis for the argument.

[Bob984]

HI All,

I am a music first drum corps fan (Always have been) and what I like hear during the course of a drum corps show is moderation. I don't expect to like every corps I see by any means.

So am I rare fan for being really tired of DCI corps staffs/arrangers picking and arranging music with a lot of dissonance in it ? I mean...you couple the dissonance with choppy musical arrangements....and things get a bit difficult to get in to (From an emotional standpoint) to say the least. As I look over the last several drum corps seasons a couple stick out as better (musically, less dissonant) than others (2005, 2008 less dissonant). It just seems to me there is some sort of comfort zone corps staffs have with dissonance. I mean....this has basically been a trend with drum corps music for a really long time. Just when I think the trend has run it's course....bang....the next season brings a bunch of shows with dissonance.

Will dissonance ever become an old/tired idea.....or is it pretty much here to stay.......thoughts ?

2010...year of the fan.....not so sure. Only 4 out of the 12 corps (world class) I have heard so far this season present music that is engaging.....to me...

Totally agree.......Cavies are a good example....much dissonance in the horn book....and when they use consonance, it is not well-orchestrated........DCI brass and effect adjudication results do not reflect arrangement quality or actual effect at all.........Another example....in my opinion, Madison should be trouncing Glassmen in brass and music effect.....there is no comparison in the quality of sound or the quality and effectiveness of the arrangements.........however, the judging community does not agree..........until the musical aspects of a quality arrangement and brass excellence are fully recognized, things will continue as they are. I just watched Cadets from last night. Not only do they have a very well-arranged musical program with arrangements that have musical continuity, they have improved leaps in all execution captions in just one week. I have seen all of the shows thusfar, and I believe they have the best overall package by far. If they continue to execute, I believe they should win hands down, as I believe they have produced a product that is more effective than the other top players.

GB

[BMBob]

Totally agree.......Cavies are a good example....much dissonance in the horn book....and when they use consonance, it is not well-orchestrated........DCI brass and effect adjudication results do not reflect arrangement quality or actual effect at all.........Another example....in my opinion, Madison should be trouncing Glassmen in brass and music effect.....there is no comparison in the quality of sound or the quality and effectiveness of the arrangements.........however, the judging community does not agree..........until the musical aspects of a quality arrangement and brass excellence are fully recognized, things will continue as they are. I just watched Cadets from last night. Not only do they have a very well-arranged musical program with arrangements that have musical continuity, they have improved leaps in all execution captions in just one week. I have seen all of the shows thusfar, and I believe they have the best overall package by far. If they continue to execute, I believe they should win hands down, as I believe they have produced a product that is more effective than the other top players.

GB

I agree with your thoughts on the Cavaliers' book, but IMO, that's more about less than great arranging, not the fact that there is dissonance.

[GGarrett]

I always heard that the turn from what would be considered more well-known "popular" music happened when some composers (specifically John Williams, but others as well or representatives of them) started wanting huge royalties or simply forbid corps or bands from arranging their music. So many corps did compositions of their own... some memorable, some not-so-memorable. But then even someone else suggested that the compositions weren't so much "unique" or new compositions, but were based on existing compositions, just arranged in their own corps way.

But anyway, the trend toward dissonant was, as I understand it, a shift to what corps felt judging was wanting... difficulty versus "entertaining" - depending of course on just who the audience is . Music majors or "aficionados" may well appreciate dissonant music and see its complexity. Average fans may say "Hey let's go see this drum & bugle corps thing - show - performance - contest" and get there only to find completely unrecognizable music may leave saying: "OK, we'll skip this next year." Many fans are left sometimes thinking "OK, clearly that means something big to THAT corps, but I don't get it."