Youtube has added to my confusion

[JimF-LowBari]

Actually, the "limitations" on mic placement came later, particularly when the pit staging area was developed. Prior to that, mics could be positioned as close to the front sideline as the audio engineer dared. This close-mic technique, combined with the staging of mallet players (or other sections) up front, created imbalances on certain 70s-era recordings.

Well not only did I typo "palcement" I meant limitations and placement as two seperate issues. (But it does look like I meant what you replied about. ).

Will try again:

1) Limitation: No idea how well the mics of the 50s/60s picked up the sound (let alone the tone) of corps.

2) Placement: Lost track of how many places (and heights) I've seen mics for DCA. IIRC one of the late 70s/early 80s DCA albums (since sold) said there was a backfield mic to cautch the sound better. But IMO the worst idea was the shotgun mic (ca 1976) which was shoved in front of soloists as soon as the poor bugger carrying it could run over. Can't remember how it sounded on the record but seeing the guy moving in front of the corps was distracting (of course no pit so lot of empty space).

Also remember seeing DCI corps with 2v for the first time at Allentown in 1979. Missed seeing any Jrs in 1978 due to that competing thing in DCA.

Edited July 6, 2010 by JimF-LowBari

[jjeffeory]

Teaching kids about instruments that they never have and possibly never will play on seems like a waste of time to me. What good is teaching junior corps the days of the G bugle, when they are just going to go back to rehearsal on their b-flats after that?

I'm a little surprised you say that because it parallels many thoughts on other topics in education, depending on your major...

Why study ANY history? Why learn this? Why learn that? We're not going to use that.

[84BDsop]

True but you have to think of resale value

If you're the one selling them off, yes....but if you're wanting to buy a horn for your own use or for a startup, it makes more financial sense to buy a less expensive Kanstul Power bore brand new than a use Kanstul marching trumpet used....unless the seller drastically drops the price.

[DCIHasBeen]

Okay here's the skinny.

The activity started with ex WW1 military surplus G bugles, which were of pretty bad quality.

Sometime post WW2 or before, hopefully Ironlips or some more knowledgeable person can have an exact date... they went to G-D bugles, one piston valve. I have a couple, and they're also leaky and made badly, and for the love of God, I have trouble getting around on one. I likely need a Baritone, or have to go down in my parent's basement where they are kept and try working with one longer to get the feel.

They then went to Piston/Slide. The Piston set the bugle to F (what everyone would think of as 1st valve) and the left hand pulled out a slide for the F-Sharp, what would be the second valve. I've heard stories about tuning with those and the drift was on certain notes, you were supposed to "hit yourself in da face!!!!" when you pulled back on the slide.

If you are lucky, you might get to see Danny Fitzpatrick play one in DCA I and E, I was fortunate to have been there for one of his prformances. In the hands of someone like Danny, they're quite, quite, good instruments!

They then went to the Piston/rotor, where the rotor replaced the slide. Depending on the instrument and person you used the left thumb or index finger to work it. I used a thumb, which is supposedly incorrect, no one ever corrected me, and I can do 16th note runs on one (when the freakin' rotor WORKS! ), it's not that hard once you get used to the left-right thing...

Now here's the really interesting tidbit. Getzen, I believe built 2 piston Bugles in the late 60's for the Westshoremen and perhaps another senior corps (Maybe Reading!?). The valves were not placed like a normal trumpet, but were like the piston/rotor bugles, the valves facing back towards the musician! The instruments were outlawed after a season or two, very few still exist, I have seen one of them, it's not at the Cumberland County Historical Society in PA now being preserved. So, that innovation was nipped in the bud quickly.

Jim Fawber here knows more about this in detail. Hopefully he can fill in the blanks regarding these instruments for you.

Finally, you start to see the two valves as one would normally think of them in the late '70's, I know we at Westshore underwent a partial conversion in 1982 and did not have an all 2-piston line 'till 1983.

Personally, I am on the fence in regards to the G Bugles. I use a Kanstul in Alumni corps, and it takes a lot of practice and work to subdue the beast, though I must say when one gets it under your power it's very satisfying, though with other bugles, you can over-balance with it too easily.

From my perspective, whether B-Flat or not-- give me a reliable instrument with valves that will work, is easy to deal with in terms of intonation where I can lip it when I need to, one that is responsive and not a big honkin' woof-bag like some of the Yamaha marching Baris are, and also is light and well balanced, and I will be able to provide more than adequate baritone goodness in G or B-Flat. I hope a couple of the companies that build the horns read this- the best marching bari I have come across was the old 2-valve Kings like BD had in the early 80's that came closest to fitting this ideal.

There were actually a couple of other variants on the G-D types of horns ... I found a really weird one in a Berkeley music store last year that had a second "mini valve" on it ... Would have bought it, but the guy wanted modern trumpet prices for the piece.

[rosski47]

you're serious aren't you?...... jeez, I thought corps nowadays were about "education", I guess that is all just lip-service.

Yeah that would be a really useful lesson.

[GuyW]

... they went to G-D bugles, one piston valve.

They then went to Piston/Slide. The Piston set the bugle to F (what everyone would think of as 1st valve) and the left hand pulled out a slide for the F-Sharp, what would be the second valve.

G-D bugles, we pulled a slide to get half-tones. Piston - left thumb, slide - right hand. (1965-67, SoCal)

Then came G-F horns, which came with rotary valves (rotaries were probably also available on G-Ds but I lack personal knowledge...cue Ken Norman)

So with the G-F rotaries, we switched hands, piston - right thumb, rotary - left index finger.

For my money, Olds Ultratone G-F P/R horns have not been surpassed (acknowledging "built to a price")

...which is part of "why" I played a Duratone bari in Kingsmen Alumni....

.

Edited July 7, 2010 by GuyW

[GuyW]

1) Limitation: No idea how well the mics of the 50s/60s picked up the sound (let alone the tone) of corps.

Absolutely - the old recordings don't do justice to the corps (the older the recording the worse). Someone with the skills (and access to folks with firsthand corps knowledge) would do a great service by altering the old recordings to make them true to pitch, correct tempo, and removing extraneous noises, etc.

The reason that bugle corps existed and prospered for 60+ years (so that the activity could be hijacked by bandos) was that it produced exciting music that the general public appreciated.

.

Edited July 7, 2010 by GuyW

[Jay B]

I marched in the mid-west in the early/mid 60's. Our corps used G/D valve/rotor bugles, as did every corps I can remember seeing during that period. At least in the VFW/AL arena, G-D rotor/valve preceded G-F.

[Newseditor44]

But the strange thing is....a G soprano from Kanstul is LESS expensive than a comparable trumpet...$300-$400 less...go to their site and check their pricing. I;ll buy the lack of a future market for old Gs (although the Sr side took up that inventory....the switch to Bb made so many Gs avalilable that a lot of new Srs were able to crop up.)

Sam, it's all about marketing and partnerships the big corps have with the manufacturers. Even though a set of G-horns would cost less, most of the corps get their instruments for free in return for advertising and sponsorship deals. In the late 90's, the manufacturers were lobbying hard for drum corps to move to Bb. They are the ones that bullied DCI into moving this direction.

[JimF-LowBari]

For my money, Olds Ultratone G-F P/R horns have not been surpassed (acknowledging "built to a price")

...which is part of "why" I played a Duratone bari in Kingsmen Alumni....

Off-topic: Finally found an Olds Duratone P/R Bari for sale at a reasonable price a while back. It's in my cellar now.

On-topic (since the OP is discussing) P/R: Found them easy to overblow which must have been a problem at the time as I listen to the 70s recordings. But if you paid attention (or got yelled at enough to pay attention ) you could really make some great (and loud) music with them. I like the full range my current G 3 valve gives me but playing the Olds is just plain fun.