Bob984 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I think the fool's definition of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result" comes into play here. It could be music design (Guidry), arranging/orchestrating (Chambers), lack of REAL experience in some staff, or whatever....it's not working. Fred and Mark need to sit down at the end of the season, get emotions and friendships out of the way and make some "business" decisions. Get someone in there who REALLY understands drum corps to serve as program/staff coordinator, let them put a staff and show together then get out of their way. The most constructive comment I have heard regarding future solutions.......we can only hope that they see the light in August....... GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Between the 2 Semis Music Efect Judges, between the Scouts and Crossmen, the difference in the Rep sub caption was .1 (one Judge had Crossmen up in rep) and the difference in Performance is where the separation happened. . Crossmen tied ColtsThe strength of Crossmen was Guard and they popped a number that was .6 better then Madison. Take out the guard captions, the corps tied in visual. Madison beat Crossmen in all things music. End of the day, execution not book. Even though 08 is the book I really didn't like. I am talking about a 5 year trend (4 in Texas), with consistently low marks/rankings in music effect, and you reach for a one year subcaption mark?? They still lost by a half a point in music effect on the one judge sheet, in a caption where every tenth is huge.....definitely a statement made....and I was there at the show....not close, regardless of scoring, in music effect.....in visual? yes.... The current music arranging "team", now in year 4, at Crossmen has been unsuccessful....performance issues aside......and until change is made, I expect the results to continue. The kids deserve a stronger package to play. If I am wrong, then let's see the show majorly rewritten/tweaked by Indy, and I'll eat crow. As I said before, I do expect that they will perform well at Indy, but it is the musical package itself that will hold them back. GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liebot Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I think the problem lies somewhere between design and execution, and I think it's silly to simply blame one or the other. I've been pretty vocal here and elsewhere about my problems with Aaron Guidry's arrangements, and while I think a change should be made, you just can't put the entire corps' problems at one person's feet. In 2007 there were major issues with drill design and the show being above the members' heads, in 2008 the drum line was pretty rough, and 2009 was just a mess from a design standpoint and featured a visual book that the corps could not perform effectively. In short, while I would personally be happy if the corps chose someone other than Guidry to write their musical book, I don't think that a change of arrangers is the panacea that many people think it will be. Also, I think the new visual staff is a step in the right direction, and if they can maintain consistency with the drum and guard staffs (which I have also heard good things about) and continue the momentum the brass staff has been building the past couple of years (which is, far and away, the most consistent section from a staff perspective. . . Goldberg's been involved with the corps every year since 2000) they should be in good shape. 2010, as a result of massive amounts of members leaving (members that I, unlike other alumni, do not blame for their decision), was bound to be a rebuilding year. Given the number of rookies that are in the corps this year and the much lower talent in comparison to previous years, I think the corps is doing fine. I look forward to them finishing the year strong and I hope that the membership returns to make 2011 a banner year for the corps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzmfk Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 snipSometimes the only way foreward is to look backwards; but backwards in a way to see what worked, was effective, was identifying, and didn't intimidate the membership in light of "certain music being sacred territory to the corps past." Everyone is well aware that the Crossmen had excellent success with Pat Methany music in the past; perhaps the best in the activity. However, there is more to the Crossmen than just Methany. Sure they dabled with the likes of Russian Christmas Music (which was also done quite well, by them); but I'm reminded of a slogan on thier 1989 tour shirt "High Velocity Jazz." To many, that's what the Crossmen were known for: high velocity jazz with sweet driving percussion, kickin' horn charts, and a dazzling metro feeling from the guard. What the Crossmen need is to perform a "best of show." Sure, they are attempting it with Methany; but go back prior to '91. How about coming out with another fierce arrangement of Summertime or Wind Machine? From there segway into a ripping arrangement of Caravan. To this day, nobody has been able to top the Crossmen's 1990 version of that classic. And as a closer, to show that they are progressing and looking ahead, while sticking to what worked and what the fans enjoy; find a new or newer piece of driving jazz. There are many great points made by many; hopefully, those on the Crossmen hierarchy will read some of these and take notice. And to add, my favorite Crossmen year of all time is 1987; they didn't even make top 12 that year! ...sorry, just had to comment on this... As the brass arranger for the '86-'94 Crossmen, I'm amazed that you find the '87 show your favorite. I have trouble watching that show even today.....Mark, Eric, and I really didn't know what we were doing yet, and we really didn't know how to work with each other yet. All we knew was that we wanted it to be exciting. It was exciting, but not always in the ways that we originally meant it to be..... What a great time we all had back then, though. Well, except for the people in charge of the money, and the buses, and getting the corps down the road, and...well, the list goes on. I think we figured it out pretty well eventually, though it took some outside help (like Ruocco, DeLucia, and Jack Meehan - thanks, guys!) I do hope the corps finds its way again. MFK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 NYCFan makes some very good points and I'd like to continue on...The Crossmen first started to lose thier way before they headed down to cowpoke country. When they came out with Radar Love and Paradise By The Dashboard Light, that was big ol' "Oh! Oh!" right there. The 2005 corps still had the firepower and talent; but the product just wasn't there. In 2006, it got worse with the AM/FM radio show. Just flat out bad design all across the board. Again, in 2007, the corps made an attempt to tie in its roots with its new location; but the music choices and show design were very weak. And from there, that's when the Crossmen started to really lose thier way and thier punch. Sometimes the only way foreward is to look backwards; but backwards in a way to see what worked, was effective, was identifying, and didn't intimidate the membership in light of "certain music being sacred territory to the corps past." Everyone is well aware that the Crossmen had excellent success with Pat Methany music in the past; perhaps the best in the activity. However, there is more to the Crossmen than just Methany. Sure they dabled with the likes of Russian Christmas Music (which was also done quite well, by them); but I'm reminded of a slogan on thier 1989 tour shirt "High Velocity Jazz." To many, that's what the Crossmen were known for: high velocity jazz with sweet driving percussion, kickin' horn charts, and a dazzling metro feeling from the guard. What the Crossmen need is to perform a "best of show." Sure, they are attempting it with Methany; but go back prior to '91. How about coming out with another fierce arrangement of Summertime or Wind Machine? From there segway into a ripping arrangement of Caravan. To this day, nobody has been able to top the Crossmen's 1990 version of that classic. And as a closer, to show that they are progressing and looking ahead, while sticking to what worked and what the fans enjoy; find a new or newer piece of driving jazz. There are many great points made by many; hopefully, those on the Crossmen hierarchy will read some of these and take notice. And to add, my favorite Crossmen year of all time is 1987; they didn't even make top 12 that year! I'd kill for a drum corps to do Street Dancin from 86 again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 To be honest, the corps has never had that strong of an identity that you could hang your hat on. They got close in the 90s with some consistency in terms of style of music, but even then, most regular fans would be hard pressed to come up with 3 or 4 adjectives that could describe the corps' persona, and that the staff could use when considering what to do and how to do it.What's wrong this year? Uninspired arrangements (actually, kind of aggravating arrangements, given the nature of the original pieces) and a visual program that has very little in the way of style. Well, pick either a visual motif that can be consistent year to year or pick a musical approach that can be consistent year to year, and commit to it for a few years until you can perfect it. Other corps who fell on hard times and turned themselves around did it by figuring out what was missing in the 'market' of drum corps styles, deciding on a formula and an approach, then sticking with it. If Crossmen's leadership can figure out who the corps should be and what they should sound and look like, they can start programming toward that model. But, to be honest, it appears that for a number of years they've been flailing about indiscriminately, which makes them look weakened and directionless. But 2010, unfortunately, looks like another year of Friday and out. i'll disagree. as a Crossmen fan from the beginning til recently, the identity was aggressive and jazzy ( ok 95 was aggressive with no jazz LOL). they had a vibe, and a connection to the home base area, regardless of what town was called home that year. they were THE Bones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I think the fool's definition of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result" comes into play here. It could be music design (Guidry), arranging/orchestrating (Chambers), lack of REAL experience in some staff, or whatever....it's not working. Fred and Mark need to sit down at the end of the season, get emotions and friendships out of the way and make some "business" decisions. Get someone in there who REALLY understands drum corps to serve as program/staff coordinator, let them put a staff and show together then get out of their way. yep. think a sports team keepa coach that just keeps missing by so much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerseyboy Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 The most constructive comment I have heard regarding future solutions.......we can only hope that they see the light in August.......GB Lets wait till August first. Crossmen are hard on the road cleaning and making changes. Who knows what the next 16 shows hold for them. future solutions, need to know they do not work first, and for that with a young corps you must wait till August. Program is THERE.... much cleaning and clearing things up . they will not peak early this year that's for sure. Guard has a very hard book , when they get it. it will shine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudHype Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 I am talking about a 5 year trend (4 in Texas), with consistently low marks/rankings in music effect, and you reach for a one year subcaption mark?? They still lost by a half a point in music effect on the one judge sheet, in a caption where every tenth is huge.....definitely a statement made....and I was there at the show....not close, regardless of scoring, in music effect.....in visual? yes....The current music arranging "team", now in year 4, at Crossmen has been unsuccessful....performance issues aside......and until change is made, I expect the results to continue. The kids deserve a stronger package to play. If I am wrong, then let's see the show majorly rewritten/tweaked by Indy, and I'll eat crow. As I said before, I do expect that they will perform well at Indy, but it is the musical package itself that will hold them back. GB Because YOU where making a BIG HOOPLA over 08. Your fact is correct on the score but it had to do with the performance side, that .1 difference in rep amounts to .05 in the over all score. Performance not book cost them their place. Beating Madison in visual is not a big feat that season. CH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A humble flag lover Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Here is the issue. The Brass Arranger is Carol Chambers a.k.a. Corps Director's wife. She and Guidry work together quite a bit along with Wes Cartwright. I think it would be hard to fire your wife.... I was definitely thinking the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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