The Kids work hard, but I still don't like it.

[perc2100]

Well, I wouldn't call a preference for audio over video "the problem with some audience members".

It's just a preference - not a "problem"...

It doesn't mean watching a live performance is inferior, but re-living the performance at home yea

I don't see wanting to be able to, maybe years later, put in a CD or turn on an mp3 player, put on some headphones and re-live (or experience for the first time) a particular performance while driving a "problem".

When the visual is stressed over the audio it becomes rather difficult to get the same experience weeks or months or years later without a DVD/mpg player - and taking their eyes off the road!

(Grin)

For example, while I am a huge fan of the Cavies' outstanding drills oveer the years, but I can't watch them in the car and listening is futile...

I guess I'm looking at this from a more Historical perspective...

Plus I'm a Radio guy!

Heh...

Perhaps I misunderstood you. When you said

(Diceman @ Aug 9 2010, 04:23 PM)

To me, the CDs are more important than the DVDs - the music is more important than the drill - no matter what decade.

To that end, the past few years of DCI have.. not impressed overall...

(Shrug)

I thought what you meant is that the most important aspect of a show is music and if the music can't stand alone you don't like a show. If you were instead implying that when revisiting shows after the season the current trends don't lend themselves to standalone CD's as they did ten-fifteen years ago, then I misinterpreted your meaning.

I do think there is a problem if an audience is approaching a drum corps performance with different expectations than the current trends dictate: in modern drum corps the visual package is as important as the music (sometimes more, depending on the effect, like Cavaliers stretch drill in 06 or Cadets Z-pull in 83). If an audience member is not interested in the visual and merely only hoping to hear music that can stand on its own (even though it's clearly designed as part of an audio AND visual presentation), then that audience members is not understanding the current design trends and instead hoping to see an outdated mode of drum corps. The refusal to accept the modern design trend is a problem.

Now if you're saying you far more prefer to pop in a CD rather than a DVD (or VHS; I still have more drum corps on VHS than DVD), then I can understand that. I was that way for a LONG time when I spent a lot of time in my car commuting. Now-a-days, I would rather take some time to stream a drum corps show on Fan Network to relive a specific show or moment, and I haven't listened to a CD or mp3 or musical recording in quite a long time. Conversely, I've streamed a lot of VOD drum corps shows in the last, say, five years and the ONLY time I've busted out an audio-only recording was when I wanted to hear a warm-up, cadence, or "old" version of a show that was rewritten before Finals (I have a bunch of Cadets recordings from the 90's with differences ranging from the subtle, like changed battery parts, to the drastic, like pre-Officer Krumpke ending in 94).

[TooMello]

Toomello. I'm sure you will get 'blasted' and called names for this opinion, but its also too bad you left the show early. Obviously a lot of preconceptions in your mind when you came through the gate, that were proven with the corps you saw.

I too am disappointed in some of the directions DCI is going, but after attending Allentown this past weekend, I'm also encouraged that I found more corps to "like" than I did in the past few years. Yes there have been some big changes over the past few years, and certainly huge changes from the 60's-80's version of the activity, but if you give it a chance, even us oldtimers can get excited about a corps performance. For example.........

Madison Scouts, WOW. Best crowd reaction of both nights in Allentown. The crowd was on their feet at least twice before the end and jumped up prior to the last note. Someone in the area around me said "too bad DCI doesn't understand, or embrace this kind of reaction.....at least not on the scoresheet". Have to agree with that comment, but then again crowd appeal hasn't had much to do with corps placement for a long time in DCI. The kids understand this of course, because they have been taught that demand level and perfection of technique are the goals, not to entertain. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. Having said that, as mentioned there were other corps that really impressed me. I can't even remember them all, so it must have been at least 1/2 doz, like Boston, Blue Star, Crown, Phantom, Cadets.

I absolutely hated the guitars (Teal Sound), and don't think they have any place in this activity.

I hated amps 5-6 yrs ago because they allowed the pit to overpower the hornline and battery, however I've gotten used to them, BUT with them cranked up so high that they cover up some great horn work, I've still got issues. One corps had what I thought (when I could actually hear them) a great hornline, but I couldn't tell if it was them playing or the #### amp most times. Ruined some good tuba (yes I know they're tubas now not contra basses) work. How can the brass judge actually rate a hornline when the amp music, keyboards etc, drown out the performance? I guess it becomes a matter of not how good the actual sound of the brass players is, but how they 'blend' with the amps?

When I saw the guitars come out, I figured it would be the last of my annual pilgramages to Allentown, but thankfully those 6-7 other corps restored my faith.

You really should give it another shot, and try to forget about tick systems, straight lines, high leg lifts and those other relics of our glorious past.

And to the person (was that Mr Ream?) who posted the picture of a '70's era mobile phone..........good one, it makes a point. But don't forget that it was probaly someone of my age, that invented it, so the past wasn't all that bad either.

It's amazing that: 1. People are referring me to a man 2. People think I don't know or haven't been around drum and bugle corps 3. My distaste of what I saw means I need to go back to the '70s.

I've always been a fan of Madison (boys, boys, boys ;) I've seen a youtube video of their show this year. I'm not surprised they were the corps to bring people to their feet. Someone mentioned their appreciation for subtle nuance in a drum corps show. My idea of a subtle nuance is Madison ripping your face off.

[WOOHOO]

Sorry..I won't even waste my breath with you after the " cheap cliques " crack. It doesn't even deserve an attempt at an intelligent reply when the comment is so utterly ignorant and " cheap ". I don't drink the water where pigs bath either. So do us both a favor... put my post comments on " ignore " for the future.

Yeah, I was probably too harsh, but I was genuinely confused by what you meant by diversity. I will use more respectful language in the future. Please do the same with me

That being said, are you more interested by "cultural" diversity in drum corps, or diversity on the field? It seems to me that the "legacy" fans want each drum corps to stick to a particular niche year in and year out.

[TastyWaves]

I know I'm going to get blasted... and I have read over and over the discussions pertaining to this topic.

Last night I went to my first DCI show in a long time and I was so excited to finally see one and I just hated it. I know the kids are working extremely hard and are putting their heart and soul into these shows... that is obvious. And to that extent, every single one of them are great! But these shows are the most boring things I've witnessed in a long time. Who ever is writing the music and the shows should be ashamed of themselves. How can you do that to those hard working kids? I was so disappointed.

I couldn't tell when they were starting half of the time, and if it wasn't for a grand chord at the end and a horn pop, I wouldn't know when it was ending. One show actually put a "blip" of pit at the end so I thought, oh... maybe there is another song...nope. Once the pit was miked up so much they drowned out the drums! In all the years I've been marching and watching drum corps... that has to be a first! When has anything ever drowned out a drum line?! Props... what are they thinking? A guard was doing beautiful work, had beautiful flags and you could barely see them because they had placed them BEHIND these god-awful ugly black props! What is the point of that? I watched the kids race all over the field... AND NOT PLAY! What? All this hype over Bb horns and they aren't playing? Ok, cool visuals, but where's the music? And when they did play, it was "park and bark". I thought, probably because after running, that's all they could do.... and all it sounded like when they did what whole notes in big, esoteric sounding chords. I was extremely greatful for the very few soloists. (And I also noticed not one high note from a soprano/ trumpet. It was so "blended". As a matter of fact, I noticed the shift to featuring low brass most of the time. One corps featured the trumpet line technically at one point and it was a total of 8 counts! That's it? That's all?) Don't tell me I don't understand classical, I'm of the age where you HAD to study that in school. Stuff like that was not an option. I could recognize a piece for a couple of measures and I wasn't sure what the heck they were trying to do after that. I do NOT like the electronic talking on the field. The announcer said the corps would "troop the stands". They didn't, it was chaos on and chaos off. To me it was just a big mess. How can you applaud for the kids hard work during that? I didn't like those big black screens they hide behind. I thought it was extremely distracting.

I really tried to figure out the new format for the shows. I know we went from "off the line" to "the exit", and I've watched DCA do "opener, the ballad and the closer". Honestly, after about the 4th corps, I still didn't get what the format was... assuming there is one. I know I HATE the show format. Please, pull the names out of a hat and let them go on in whatever order happens. I'm sick of them showing the corps in the order they are going to score them. Why even wait for the scores? You know by the line up who is going to win and who will not and everyone inbetween. DCA is just as guilty on that one.

I left the show early. I won't go to another. I left feeling so sad for each and every kid on that field. Everyone of them is giving everything they have, and those are the worst "drum and bugle corps" shows I've ever seen. I thought, leave the orchestra music in the orchestra, get something exciting on those fields.

I know, here it comes, blast me... but all this hype about how wonderful all these new changes are, I wasn't expecting shows that just about put me to sleep.

Again with the "oh the poor kids" crap.

They wouldnt be there if they didnt want to be. Maybe talk to someone younger than 55 and you will hear some different perspectives.

I took 40 (just over half of my marching unit) to the West Chester show and they walked out with stars in their eyes.

They absolutely loved everyone from the Surf on up.

A whole bunch made the trek on their own to Allentown, Many for both nights and about 50 of them are planning on going to the cinecast.

Believe it or not, Not a single one of them said "gosh... this would be so much better if it were more like the 19__ shows.

I try to show them all sides, but i am telling you they are just not interested. My first year watching drum corps was 1992. I was lucky enough to be given a copy of 84 and 86 finals that I wore out. I have a bunch of old stuff that I play sometimes and it usually draws giggles or "they play really well... why are they just standing there?".

When my students are in their mid-30s, there will be a new generation there to giggle at whatever they did. Its all part of the circle of life.

In any case, i dont care what you like or dont like, but please stop with the "oh those poor kids... those evil staff members" garbage.

Those kids put in the time, effort, money etc for one reason. they WANT to.

[WestCoaster]

And this is the problem with some audience members. Shows are not designed for either part to stand alone: shows are designed with the visual being JUST AS IMPORTANT as the music. This was hard for me to buy into, because I bought the CD's for nearly a decade throughout the 90's. But Cavaliers won many Championships the last ten years by designing shows where the visual is not merely complimentary to the music, but at times the music is complimentary to the visual......Drum corps is a visual as well as audio medium, and especially now-a-days it is impossible to remove half of the element from the package and still expect a complete product.

I don't think it's a problem with audience members at all, I think it's a problem with the music.

If you think of ANY other art form which incorporates music and visual, you find (if it's any good) that the music can stand alone just fine. A great ballet is obviously best enjoyed live and "complete", but it's perfectly enjoyable to pop in a CD and listen to the music alone.

If you can't pop in a corps CD and enjoy the music, things have gone too far and it's not 50/50 at ALL; rather music has taken a backseat to the visual.

And I believe that's exactly what has happened with corps these days. Beginning with Garfield in the mid-80's, the ever increasing velocity requirements meant that there were less and less "standard" tunes that could be used, since they are generally "too slow". This has led to an increasingly frenetic style of music that is at best unusual, and oft inaccessible to people who enjoy "regular" music.

Here's the truth, if a corps has a visual program that enslaves the music, they should get impressive visual scores but get slammed in the music categories. Unfortunately that hasn't happened. Instead of judges judging corps vs. any other art form, they are judging corps vs itself only. And they've ruined things due to that tunnel vision. If, from the start, they'd judged music appropriately based on ALL music we know of instead of approving of strange bastardizations only to be found in drumcorpsworld, the corps and their designers would've had to find a happy medium between visual and audio. As it stands though, they are free to go as far as they want. In fact, they are REQUIRED to do so if they want to remain competitive.

Sad, but true.

[perc2100]

I have to say I agree with the original poster on a few points, though. I don't think DCI has ever been more boring than it is right now. The activity is totally self-serving and has earned the downturn in appeal that it has. I'm not saying that the members don't work hard at it. I am sure they do. I just don't enjoy the product of all that effort. I love a significant amount of what DCI put out for the first 30 years or so, but it really drops off after that for me. I've tried to like it. I've tried to enjoy it. I want to like it.

I want to get beyond some of the recent rules changes, and it is possible that it isn't all the fault of those changes. Whether it is the rules changes or just a shift in the world of program design, or a combination of those things, it doesn't really make the experience a positive one for me.

To be honest, since the advent of DCI the activity has been nearly 100% self-serving. Heck, DCI was created so individual corps/directors could get exactly what they believed was best for them/their corps personally (yea, I know that's a generalization, but a true one none the less).

I guess all I can say is if watching/participating in DCI currently is "not a positive experience" for you, then why continue to take part in it? Do you think amps, synths, Bb brass/whatever latest rule was passed you disagree with will someone go away, and things will revert back to 1998 or something? I'm not trying to stir things up, I'm just continually fascinated that people who are pretty open and honest with their distaste of modern trends continue to frequent a forum that is specifically in place to discus current DCI World Class drum corps; wouldn't it be more enjoyable to go to the historic forum here and talk about what you love about the older shows instead of writing disparaging comments about modern drum corps? Seriously, I have very little interest in modern Broadway musicals, but I wouldn't think to frequent a forum devoted to modern Broadway musicals just to complain. I couldn't care less about the Tea Party folks, but would never seek out their internet haven to pick fights with them, or try to convince them that maybe liberalism is superior and conservatives suck. It would serve no purpose, disrupt their discussions, and just waste time. I'd be better suited going to a place that talked about WSS and other classic Broadway musicals I love, or maybe a liberal forum that I can contribute to

[Tekneek]

Do you think amps, synths, Bb brass/whatever latest rule was passed you disagree with will someone go away, and things will revert back to 1998 or something?

No. I even said I am not sure I can blame the rules changes for it. It might just be that show designers are putting crap on the field, at least when it comes to my tastes. I suspect it is a combination, though.

I'm not trying to stir things up, I'm just continually fascinated that people who are pretty open and honest with their distaste of modern trends continue to frequent a forum that is specifically in place to discus current DCI World Class drum corps; wouldn't it be more enjoyable to go to the historic forum here and talk about what you love about the older shows instead of writing disparaging comments about modern drum corps?

What did I really say that was disparaging? I went pretty easy on it, and I was merely commenting on an existing thread (on page 6 of that, even!). I didn't tell them to be boring. I keep trying because I used to love drum corps so much. I keep giving them chances for that very reason. In many circles, that effort would be commended. Apparently, it is regarded with disdain here. I'm glad I don't actually need your approval to post here.

Seriously, I have very little interest in modern Broadway musicals, but I wouldn't think to frequent a forum devoted to modern Broadway musicals just to complain. I couldn't care less about the Tea Party folks, but would never seek out their internet haven to pick fights with them, or try to convince them that maybe liberalism is superior and conservatives suck. It would serve no purpose, disrupt their discussions, and just waste time. I'd be better suited going to a place that talked about WSS and other classic Broadway musicals I love, or maybe a liberal forum that I can contribute to

Is this the part where I say, "Good for you!" at? It wouldn't bother me if you did those things. Go express yourself!

[BRASSO]

Yeah, I was probably too harsh, but I was genuinely confused by what you meant by diversity. I will use more respectful language in the future. Please do the same with me

That being said, are you more interested by "cultural" diversity in drum corps, or diversity on the field? It seems to me that the "legacy" fans want each drum corps to stick to a particular niche year in and year out.

Good question, WOOHOO. I guess I'd like a little more diversity in music genres played, ie more rap, more country, more marches, more rock, more alternative, more pop, and so forth. There's lots of genres that some show designers must think they'll burn in hell if they incorporate more of these music genres into their shows.Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the dead for 50-300 years composers works... even some of the comtemporary obscure composers stuff that was dusted off from the bottom of the composer's bottom drawer. But there is SO much more interesting music out there that can be both appealing to the " folks " and also to the hoi poloi among us, as well as to the judges if done in a creative way, imo.

Edited August 10, 2010 by BRASSO

[HockeyDad]

So, diversity equals the number of cheap cliches a corps has?

You really think that any of the guards look alike now?

Way to be dismissive.

[WOOHOO]

No. I even said I am not sure I can blame the rules changes for it. It might just be that show designers are putting crap on the field, at least when it comes to my tastes. I suspect it is a combination, though.

What did I really say that was disparaging? I went pretty easy on it, and I was merely commenting on an existing thread (on page 6 of that, even!). I didn't tell them to be boring. I keep trying because I used to love drum corps so much. I keep giving them chances for that very reason. In many circles, that effort would be commended. Apparently, it is regarded with disdain here. I'm glad I don't actually need your approval to post here.

Is this the part where I say, "Good for you!" at? It wouldn't bother me if you did those things. Go express yourself!

It really just doesn't seem logical to expect things to change in DCI by complaining about it on DCP, as this is just a place to vent. I would hope no one on here thinks that any of the things said on here have any impact on DCI administration.