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The "Tick" System


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12 hours ago, BC82Sop said:

I marched 79, 80, and 81 Spirit and 82 Blue Devils.  The tic system was still in place when I marched Spirit and also in 1982. In 1982, we beat Madison's old hornline score that year that had been set in 1975 before finals and had a record horn score with only three tics at finals.  If I am not mistaken, the horn caption was the first to do away with the tic system.  I know scoring a 95.25 as we did in 1982 at finals with the tic system still in place was what we shot for all winter and season long. The execution judges sometimes varied between sides and within captions, however, I can tell you as a horn line member and marcher, it gave us a sense of accountability and I know we felt we had control.  In Spirit, one of our marching instructors told us to get the first 30 seconds of the show flawless and the execution judges will go easier on us. In BD we were told the same thing.  We worked to get the first 30 seconds flawless and both times we saw the numbers go up. 

 

How many pages did you have to go back to find and resurrect this?

Happy Thanksgiving!  😀

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6 minutes ago, Continental said:

Do you remember if there was much controversy when scoring moved away from the tick system or was it generally accepted without issue?  I don't remember and of course we didn't have the internet back then.

I remember one rule change that I was not aware about before the tick system was abolished.  In '80 guard members were allowed to retrieve equipment they had dropped as opposed to waiting for a judge to come by, pick it up and hand it back to them.

I wasn't aware of the rule change when I went to see Key to the Sea that year.  During one show I saw a guard member drop a rifle and pick it back up.  My first thought was "Are you crazy!!!!! That's a major penalty!" 

Like everything it was all controversial . Just like today when there are those who say the activity is dead because of this or that...ahhhh....no!

Those, especially many judges didn't like that there was criteria attached for scoring..gone were the days of " I called it the way I saw it or heard it without accountability. Judges had to also answer for scoring and many didn't like that.

Yes, even the dropped equipment met with controversy. but think about it with winter a staff member running around to get it back to a person....dumb,,,lol

You had to see when the American flag sections became optional for winter...LMAO...OMGGGGGGG..Funny one of the major contributors to the getting rid of the manual of Arms and the A squad that very next season did a 1940s Americana show flag and all.. We were all like WTF...lol

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49 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

Like everything it was all controversial . Just like today when there are those who say the activity is dead because of this or that...ahhhh....no!

Those, especially many judges didn't like that there was criteria attached for scoring..gone were the days of " I called it the way I saw it or heard it without accountability. Judges had to also answer for scoring and many didn't like that.

Yes, even the dropped equipment met with controversy. but think about it with winter a staff member running around to get it back to a person....dumb,,,lol

You had to see when the American flag sections became optional for winter...LMAO...OMGGGGGGG..Funny one of the major contributors to the getting rid of the manual of Arms and the A squad that very next season did a 1940s Americana show flag and all.. We were all like WTF...lol

So interesting!  I completely forgot about what issue removing the American flag section would cause. 

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24 minutes ago, Continental said:

So interesting!  I completely forgot about what issue removing the American flag section would cause. 

Evolution , the good and bad of that...depending who you talk to...lol

The Americana show the following season was hysterical especially knowing how vocal this 1 person was in getting rid of all things traditional....kinda genius

The tic system in that part of the activity which you would think was more cut and dry was just as a mess and opinion .

 

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11 hours ago, GUARDLING said:

The Tic system was a hot mess and just as now opinion. There was little to no accountability back then and proved pretty much nothing. Nothing consistent and what some called exciting when a corps could jump or fall many spots one day to the next, others would say impossible and shows one judge to another...just opinion..I  also taught and  judged under both systems.

I learned and started judging under the tic system as well. Totally agree with the above. I judged in the Garden State Circuit from 76-80'ish. The circuit decided at the winter meeting one year, either 76 or 77, to judge on the "National Linear" scale...in other words, the lowest beginner corps was to be compared to the very top corps (e.g. Blue Devils/Santa Clara, etc) in evaluating the performance being adjudicated. This lasted about two weeks once the season started and the directors and staffs saw just how low scores were going to be. So they immediately decided to change to a "Circuit" tolerance level, much more realistic.

What that does show is that a tic is not always a tic, as some try and say. It is only a tic if the judge decided it was a tic based on whatever criteria were being used. There were also group tics where one phrase could result in more than a single tic, based on the judge determination. Also, a judge had to be in position to mark a tic. In drumming execution, we could only mark a tic when we were standing in front of a particular section. Even if we heard other errors in a section behind us, for instance, we were not supposed to mark it down. 

As mallets and other instruments became prevalent, it really showed the limits of tics in percussion. Even timpani. I was judging a GSC show in the summer, and one corps had a timpani section that was doing a lot of cranking to change pitches...except that as they cranked, the notes never changed. I spoke to the instructor at the judge critique after the show. He told me I was the very first judge all summer to catch them...turns out they disconnected the cranks before the corps started their show. It just looked like they were changing pitches. They used to get credit in analysis and effect for all of the note "changes".  😎   

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Continental said:

So interesting!  I completely forgot about what issue removing the American flag section would cause. 

My memory is that early on in the DCI era, some corps kept faux American flags so they would avoid flag violation penalties. I believe our show in 1972 (Garfield's "No More War" show) used a fake American Flag in what passed for a color pre, Mahler's 5th Symphony to the Peace Sign Drill.

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Everybody dissing the tic system.  I understand some of the criticism and shortcomings but I still like it and wish some of its elements could be incorporated today.  It forced a MUCH higher emphasis on execution that is lacking in modern Drum Corps.  Getting rid of it allowed for more creativity but perfection is beautiful too.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, greg_orangecounty said:

Everybody dissing the tic system.  I understand some of the criticism and shortcomings but I still like it and wish some of its elements could be incorporated today.  It forced a MUCH higher emphasis on execution that is lacking in modern Drum Corps.  Getting rid of it allowed for more creativity but perfection is beautiful too.

 

 

Look again, it's pretty darn perfect today. With that look back at some old videos, not as perfect as one remembers. Skill level is through the roof today, no denying  that

Youre right though about creativity, the icons of the activity back then were the ones who pushed the activity toward a more creative activity. SO, if we want to blame anyone for change we have to look wayyyyyyy back in the day.

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1 hour ago, GUARDLING said:

Look again, it's pretty darn perfect today. With that look back at some old videos, not as perfect as one remembers. Skill level is through the roof today, no denying  that

Youre right though about creativity, the icons of the activity back then were the ones who pushed the activity toward a more creative activity. SO, if we want to blame anyone for change we have to look wayyyyyyy back in the day.

How many loved shows would have done much worse under the tick system?

I'll point to the Crossmen '92 thread.  If that show were judged under the tick system, I don't think it would have done so well.  IMO there are a lot of issues with visual execution. 

But the current system allowed for it to become greater than the sum of it's parts because of the total package.

On top of this, a show like Crossmen '92 would never have been attempted under the tick system. 

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6 minutes ago, Continental said:

How many loved shows would have done much worse under the tick system?

I'll point to the Crossmen '92 thread.  If that show were judged under the tick system, I don't think it would have done so well.  IMO there are a lot of issues with visual execution. 

But the current system allowed for it to become greater than the sum of it's parts because of the total package.

On top of this, a show like Crossmen '92 would never have been attempted under the tick system. 

Yep different styles of shows to match different styles of judging. I still think tic and today systems are both subjective as hades. Can write as much verbiage as you want about what makes Box 5 but.... it’s still a judges opinion it the criteria is met

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