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Actually, I firmly believe that the opposite might happen. Kids today aren't interested in the regional touring model. They are far more interested in the national tour, and where the corps is going. I've seen this first hand over the last few years. Moving to a regional model might make fiscal sense for existing corps, but I doubt it will have much impact on creating new corps. We won't suddenly see hordes of new corps spring up out of nowhere.

do you think the kids want the national tour because the "big" corps do national tours though? They want to feel big time. If there are only regional touring available, I don't think that kids would choose not to march drum corps because they aren't going to enough places. Kids don't march drum corps to travel the country, they march to do drum corps.

no one comes home from tour and goes "man, that was fun, but I really wish there were more nights where we had no floor time!"

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mgarside83: You've nailed it as far as I'm concerned.

Addressing Mr. Hopkins as to becoming more relevant: You and your G7 buddies have been chasing off most of the older Drum Corps fans with a stick the last 5 years or so and now you've realized it as the money has dried up. Take a long look in the mirror G7 as it's your fault. This fundamental transformation of Drum Corps into glorified marching band isn't the answer.

The product of "WGI on a football field" isn't going to attract most of the young men that are needed to fill the Corps member rosters. It's too much artistry and not enough meat. Too many gimmicks. Pre-show, post-show, mini encore: gimmick, gimmick, gimmick. Just put some meat on the table and we'll come back and bring others to share it with. Put out a product that most of us are not embarrassed to be associated with and the money will start rolling back in. In my opinion it's that simple.

Lastly, I would suggest keeping the top 3 or 4 Corps AWAY from each other until Finals. NO super-regional where they go head to head 2 weeks before Finals. Why would anyone be motivated to go to Finals if there's no suspense? And while we're at it- Do the '88 blind performance order and no announced scores until Finals night. NO SLOTTING!!!

But, haven't the Cadets had two of the most fan friendly shows the past couple years? I think they've become the opposite of what people are making them out to be.

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But, haven't the Cadets had two of the most fan friendly shows the past couple years? I think they've become the opposite of what people are making them out to be.

I think they've moved a little more to the center. A little. The alumni money started to dry up forcing a slight course correction but the overall destination is still the same. Wouldn't you agree?

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But, haven't the Cadets had two of the most fan friendly shows the past couple years? I think they've become the opposite of what people are making them out to be.

Yes. Next step: change the scoring system to reward this.........and more corps will present fan friendly shows

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Actually, I wasn't thinking about Teal and Spirit as much as I was thinking about Crossmen, Troopers, and Cascades. And no, four corps shows wouldn't be viable.

Please note that Troopers Director is rather in favor of Regional tours. They can go either way. As for Crossmen. Well if you look o na map, there are 5 corps in Texas, and there have been several show with only 5 corps in them. Also Cascades are just fine with the Northern Cali corps (throw SCV and SCVC with Casades, Thunder and Crusaders) That would be well BINGO 5 corps. Then there are the million southern CA corps, but hey guess what you could throw BK and Troop with the northwest, and thats 7.

But I am guess now that Teal is WC, they can only think of WC corps. I am totally in favor of corps not placing in the top 17, not being referred to as WORLD CLASS, just for sake of saying WORLD CLASS. Rather they are "transitional" corps.

But leave it to the guys in Florida to throw the mirrors up. Regional touring has to happen, and if not then things will die down. I am pretty sure that Madison (because Komnick is not an idiot) will try and hang local to the midwest this year, but then again they have the balls to stand up and continue to reduce their debt, and reduce their fees, and build an incredibly powerful organization.

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Actually, I firmly believe that the opposite might happen. Kids today aren't interested in the regional touring model. They are far more interested in the national tour, and where the corps is going. I've seen this first hand over the last few years. Moving to a regional model might make fiscal sense for existing corps, but I doubt it will have much impact on creating new corps. We won't suddenly see hordes of new corps spring up out of nowhere.

Yes you will... More corps are poping up and guess what..... THEY ARE ONLY TOURING REGIONALLY!

If it costs $3,500 to march to place 20 out of 23 and people care barely pay that. Then making it cost $900 to place 20/23 and still go to FL GA SC AL MI TN NC and Indy is still rather Impressive. But I guess you have to go to Texas in order to be "world Class" 20/23

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I serously doubt DCI will flourish by targeting theatre and ballet audiences. In fact, the way I see it, the ballet and theatre arts are hurting DCI more than they could ever help it.

I came from a competitive high school band program. What got me into drum corps was how cool it was. Phantom 96 was cool, dark, huge sounding. BD 94,95,96,97,99 those drumlines were totally Bad@#$! Cavies 95 or 2000. SCV late 90's early 2000's. I'm not an old drum corps guy, but this is a more complex problem than simply DCI. Competitive marching band in high school is in trouble. More and more directors are taking the easy route and fielding only football bands. High school and college age youth are the future of this activity. They are the future members, fans and sponsors. If we don't appeal to them, we die.

No offense to any MM efforts, this is strictly critisizing design efforts, but how cool is Cadets 2010 show to a high school kid? This show would appeal to little kids and old ladies. It was very cute. Not exactly 96 Phantom, or 90's BD. I didn't find it appealing at all, all the stuff I wanted to see and hear I was distracted from. That's not a knock on the cadets either. A lot of groups I appreciated were very hard to enjoy through all the "sophistication" and "artistry". I teach high school competitive drumlines. My most effective recruiting tool is "The Line" DVD from BD 95, 96 and 97. Also Keeping up with the Jonz 2004. What makes these appealing to youth? Often times, I am embarrased to show high school kids some of the modern shows that are coming out. This is a general statement though, there are a few modern shows I love. I loved Phantom this year, for instance, but even they were a little "artsy". Kids don't want to look or be a part of something that will get them made fun of by their peers. We are already fighting a stigma attached to the activity, then we feed into it......what did you think would happen?

I also think that we need to understand that youth control much more of the consumer market than even most adult demographics do. What pop groups are at the top of the charts and bringing in the most money? The ones that appeal to youth. Most of these groups do not even put out very good music, but they have a "cool" image. Kids get their parents to buy them merchandise, take them to concerts or shows, buy them cell phones. Kids could bring entire families to DCI events.

I'm not saying that we change what the activity is, but I know the kids I have worked with over the years would connect much easier to shows that weren't designed so artsy, and were more Bad#$%. Kids want to be bad@#@ and want to feel Bad!@#@. I want more bad@#$ shows myself!

Some corps do a decent job of this now. However, I wouldn't use Madison as the leading example either. Madison is going in a direction that really appeals to fans from the 70's and 80's. The kids I teach who are up on the activity, were not talking about Madison much at all after this year. They liked Cavies, Phantom, Crown and Bluecoats. However, these kids didn't LOVE these shows top to bottom. There were parts of every show they didn't like. Cheesy dancing, or play acting. They also didn't like the electronics any more than the old drum corps people did. It didn't make them as angry, but it certainly isn't attracting them to the activity.

Financially, I have taught many super talented kids who wanted more than anything to march in DCI, who couldn't afford dues. I do think reasonable dues costs need to be found. High school band booster organizations have helped to fund some, but these groups are just as strapped as the corps are right now.

Maybe other people's experiences are completely different than mine, but I def. am finding it harder and harder to use DCI materials as recruiting tools for getting kids to join competitive marching band at the high school level. And if we ignore that, we are cutting the entire activity off at it's heels. That, to me, is an image problem. This year we took a large group of kids and their parents to a DCI show to introduce them to the activity and recruit them to join the high school marching band. Some of the dads had a look on their face watching the shows like I was trying to recruit their son to be in ballet, when he wants him to play football. The NFL is putting out a much cooler image than we are currently, what kid doesn't want to be an NFL star? They are bad!@^@

In a nut shell, I think DCI needs to be more bad@@#!!!! :doh::tongue::thumbup:

some very good points here. however there is a conflict. as you stated the kids want to play a certain style. but if you're talking about expanding the activity to a wider non drum corps audience and an audience that is old enough to be able to pay for tickets you'd better start thinking about playing some music that's not the latest technical edgy version of some obscure composer from the 1800's or the latest concert band composer that's primarly popular on college campus. READ the repertoire of the 22 world class corps. you'll get bored just reading it! worse yet are the corps that destroy the intent of a "piece", loosing the "development" and/or "build" portion. emotion should be the goal. emotion is a heart felt response. your not going to get goose bumps from a manufactured "high" and it's getting to be more and more MANUFACTURED HIGH

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Since this thread is about relevancy ... then let's stick to the topic. Who is DCI relevant to?

1. Legacy Fans (what's left of them)

2. Recent generation FMM's.

3. Family members of Legacy fans and FMM's

4. High School Marching Band Programs

5. Parents outside of DCI who have kids interested in music (see the Steve Young interview when Champs were in the Rose Bowl a couple years back)

Who is DCI NOT relevant to?

1. Symphony, Opera, Theatre and Orchestra afficianado's.

2. Radio and TV executives

3. Momz and Popz looking to take the family out for some fun

4. Legacy Fans that you've already lost.

How does DCI become more relevant to those listed above. Exceptional marketing. You have to create a case for WHY people would want to listen to this on the radio/satellite or watch it on TV. Reality Tv show that lasts the competitive season? SOunds like a real possibility to me if it were pitched properly (not just the competitive aspect .. but the actual members themselves would need to be followed .. this includes relationships, live on the road, the value structure, getting chewed out by instructors, full length rehearsal segments, fan interviews watching rehearsals and shows .. etc etc etc.) You have to show the world how Crazy, Smart, Dedicated, Loyal, Perfectionistic and once again, CRAZY we are for doing drum corps. If you can't sell that to a smart executive ... you have no chance of being relevant to anyone else anyway. A documentary is not going to do the trick ... and no one other than DCI fans are ever going to see it anyway.

Studio recordings of great pieces of music (not show music) need to be recorded and pitched to the Classical/Jazz stations around the country .. and get them played even if it costs money to make them play it and tell the drum corps story (extremely short version) in order to get more people interested.

Better marketing in the local market of the show sites the week prior to the show is an absolute MUST!!!!!!! Ask Crown what they're doing ... because they get butts in the seats and a good percentage are NEW fans!!

Lastly, revert some of the rules changes and get back to being drum and bugle corps. Without putting a percentage on the Legacy fans that you've lost .. I'll use myself as an example. You've lost 80% of the money I was spending 20 years ago on the activity. You've lost 60% of the money I was spending on the activity 10 years ago. I'm an important demographic to your business model ............... STOP PRETENDING LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS!!!!! The more you ignore the Legacy fans and keep preaching about needing a new market segment to fill to the seats .. the more you tick us off and less money you're going to get from us. So get real! Take a good long look at the shows that were being put on the field when the current age of Drum Corps was most successful (the mid 80's to early 90's). Do your dang homework and maybe, just maybe, you'll stop ticking off the ONCE largest segment of your paying customers. Keep changing things and you're going to lose us altogether.

George Hopkins, most of this post is aimed at you. I know what makes you tick. I know how you game the system to get what you want. I know how you "negotiate". I know how little alumni, fans, legacy and tradition actually mean to you (and you only revert to those things when it shows a clear opportunity to make money). So stop with the BS and retire. You don't want to be there anyway (and I know that for a fact). Step down, shut up and retire to the USSBA side of your organization or leave altogether. You've meddled enough with the activity and personally should take responsibility for the situation DCI is in today (and yes I know you had some help).

Signed,

Dan Hurd

(look me up in your OLD donars list/volunteer list/alumni list)

Edited by supersop
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For me, when I was in high school, I didn't have the opportunity to march DCI, mainly because of the cost. I lived in Cleveland, and was within a 2 hour drive of 4 DCI corps: Bluecoats, Glassmen, Cap. Reg., and Marion Glory Cadets. All of them were entirely too expensive for me. So I had to give up any ideas about DCI just because of price.

However, another issue was competition. My high school band was a program that was falling apart: the director was near retirement, the administration hated band, and students were in marching band for the "easy A." As such we had 40 people in marching band, most of which did not memorize their music, and some of which could not even walk on the correct foot or even on the beat. The director didn't care because the students didn't care, and they would blatantly tell him so. As such, he would throw out every mailed invitation and turn down every phone invitation to marching band festivals or contests. So I never once performed on a field in a competition. I had no idea how I would stack up against other people trying out on my instrument.

When I got to college, I tried out for the Ohio State Univ. Marching Band. Once again, I had no idea what competition was, since I was naturally just the best performer in the entire HS band, since most purposely goofed off and would under perform. Obviously I did not make the OSU Band, and decided not to try out after that.

What does all of this have to do with the topic? Here goes:

There are plenty of young men and women who would love to be a part of something great like drum corps. However, many of these people come from families who have very little income, or, as in my case, have to pay to go to Catholic high school because the city's public schools were dangerous and had a <50% graduation rate. Because of that, there wasn't extra spending money. Drum corps needs to become a more community oriented program. If you ignore the community you claim to be based in, you alienate the children of that community. For example, Blue Stars, based in Wisconsin, have rehearsals in Indianapolis. What gives? You can't be a Wisconsin corps and expect interest from people in Wisconsin if you don't rehearse there or do community events there. In general, there seems to be too much focus on obscure markets hours away from the "home base" of the corps. Bring the corps back home, if you will, and your home will be appreciative. The people from all over who want to try out for XYZ corps obviously have the money to do so, so they will still come regardless of where the home city is. There is no reason that corps have to be so expensive. Yes, fuel, maintenance, uniforms, instruments, food, etc. cost money. I know those things aren't free. But you don't need to buy new uniforms every year. You don't need to play on brand new horns every single season. At my high school, the fiberglass Sousaphone I played on was over 30 years old. It was repainted with car paint and the broken pieces were held together by car bondo and white athletic tape. I've read countless stories of the drum corps of the 70s and 80s having the kids play on horns older than them. You can't make any more changes to marching brass aside from adding concert tubas, French horns, trombones, and Sousaphones, so you can keep a line of marching brass for more than one season.

If fuel is killing a corps, don't go on tour so early. My DCA corps doesn't even have a bus or charter contract, we are on our own to get to shows. Have more local shows. I don't know how to do that, but regardless, either do DCA/DCI shows, or regional DCI shows.

The next two are contradictions, sort of. First has to deal with people like myself who never had a high school program that was challenging or competitive. The idea of the tryout process for many drum corps makes a lot of people nervous or not even bother to go to camps. There's no incentive if you feel that you're an underdog anyways. More less competitive programs need to come up. And not like these "cadet" corps that only allow people age 12-15 or whatever. There are plenty of people who would like to be in a "cadet" style, less competitive (internally, for placement) corps so they can get a taste of what drum corps is all about. It seems that the way corps pander to only specific people (competitive marchers who are also music majors or equivalent musical ability) is also shooting them in the foot by not allowing other people to garner interest.

The contradiction of sorts to this has to do with competition. Every year, the OSUMB has 225 members. The instrumentation does not change. The intensity of shows, the traditions on game day, and the competition of tryouts is what keeps the band from having issues filling this instrumentation plan. Every year, anywhere between 350-500 musicians try out for those 225 spots. You get 40-50 tuba players for 28 spots just because most of them want the honor of dotting the "i." There are traditions that the band has that are kept super secret from the new rookies until a special "inititaion" night when they are finally considered worthy, if you will, of learning the secrets.

Yes, looking back on it, the "secrets of the OSUMB" may seem stupid, silly, or childish, but it was a big deal at the time because of the traditions associated with the 130+ year old band. The band does "new" things all the time, but they keep their intensity and drive - the "meat" someone referred to earlier - which keeps everyone coming back to the table. The OSU Athletic Band, which plays at hockey, basketball, volleyball, etc. comprises many of the OSUMB members as well as directing staff. It is often used as an experimentation ground for new music for the OSUMB. A surprising hit with the fans is a custom arrangement of Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance."

If you have ever been to an OSU game, the stands are packed for pre-game shows. The fight songs, script Ohio, etc. - the Tradition. For halftime, the stands are half full at best unless people hear through the grapevine that the show is going to be "f***in' awesome." There were tons of classical shows with pretty music that no one was interested in, but when the band formed the Titanic and "sank it" or when the band danced to "Thriller" the crowd went wild.

I personally love old drum corps stuff. I've heard shows from the past 5 or 6 years, and in general, they're boring to me. It's all about abstract music, complex themes, complex dance themes for the guard, and "concert" style playing. I love listening to CDs of the 70s to 90s. Just pure, in your face, sound. You could peel paint with the volume of some corps. Just because you picked a theme didn't mean you stuck with it (ie. 1978 Phantom - "Firebird" that quickly fell into "Into the Hall of the Mountain King" and ended with Beethoven's 9th. A guard that twirled flags and dressed similar to the corps? How obscure!

I think the poster with the comment about meat was dead on. Right now drum corps shows remind me of a Vegan wedding. I've been to one. When the food came out, half of us were ready to sneak out down the street to the BBQ joint. If you put a giant mushroom on the plate garnished with other "organic" vegetables, you're going to leave hungry (unless you're a Vegan). If you put a big slice of meat on the table, you're going to feast and want more. Don't like meat? Maybe, just maybe, we can find a way to make our "Vegan wedding" drum corps become more like Home Town Buffet. We need to get a little bit of everything. Yes, that means laying off some of the things I've seen in the past few seasons, and we need to bring back some things that have been stripped away. I want my "Vegan" friend to get what they want out of the show, theatrics, amps, etc. at the same time I get my meat and potatoes: in your face playing, easy/popular themes.

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some very good points here. however there is a conflict. as you stated the kids want to play a certain style. but if you're talking about expanding the activity to a wider non drum corps audience and an audience that is old enough to be able to pay for tickets you'd better start thinking about playing some music that's not the latest technical edgy version of some obscure composer from the 1800's or the latest concert band composer that's primarly popular on college campus. READ the repertoire of the 22 world class corps. you'll get bored just reading it! worse yet are the corps that destroy the intent of a "piece", loosing the "development" and/or "build" portion. emotion should be the goal. emotion is a heart felt response. your not going to get goose bumps from a manufactured "high" and it's getting to be more and more MANUFACTURED HIGH

THIS!!!! :doh:

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