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Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta


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I'm generally not a proponent of quotas, "political correctness", and such silly nonsense, but I do find it rather odd that a music critic, a White, male Caucasian himself, lists not a single composer on his list here than is other than a White, male Causasian. There is not a single music composer of Color on this list. I'm not struck by the absence so much of recent composers, as much as I'm struck by the absence of persons of Color. Were there not great composers from long ago from the Far East? Africa? Asia?

I think you ask a reasonable question, but I think that the answer is: not by the standards of Western classical music, which is probably all that Tommasini feels qualified to judge. In a somewhat analogous situation, I was lately perusing the lists of all-time ten best films issued every ten years since 1952 by the British film magazine, Sight & Sound, based on international polls of film critics, and observed that of 88 films listed in eight polls from six decades (a second poll of film directors was added starting in 1992, and there have been numerous ties), 39 were from the U.S., 39 were from Europe (mostly France, Italy, and the U.S.S.R.); and 10 were from Asia (9 from Japan). Noting in passing that no African or South American films are listed, I'd like to point out that the list has yet had only one film from India, the nation which has long led the world in movie production. But India's films are overwhelmingly sentimental musicals that have little to do with the artistic goals tha critics outside of India care for.

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Political correctness is nothing more than living with the delusion you can pick a turd up by the clean end.

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

In all seriousness, could we keep this thread as a discussion of Bartok, and maybe a few other neglected composers instead of turning this into a PC/non-PC discussion? Discuss away on other topics, but please start a new thread.

Just to toss out a few names for consideration;

William Schuman (NOT Robert Schumann) - Symphonies, American Festival Overture

Paul Creston - Symphonies

Peter Mennin - Symphonies

Lukas Foss (my mom's composition teacher) - Symphonies

David Diamond - Symphonies

Howard Hanson - Symphonies, Merry Mount(Cadets)

Eduard Tubin - Symphonies

Arvo Part - Symphonies

John Carpenter - Skyscrapers

Mostly unkown (or at least under played) in orchestral circles, but some of these names jump off the page if you are a "band" person.

Edited by Steve Knob
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...the rest of your rant IS all about PC. It completely REEKS of PC, in every sentence. So much so, that I can't tell if you were trying to be funny.

No, I wasn't attempting in my remarks in this particiular post to draw humor. I was posing probing questions for those to ponder, and then and for those so inclined to respond to the questions I posed in a more serious vein.

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No, I wasn't attempting in my remarks in this particiular post to draw humor. I was posing probing questions for those to ponder, and then and for those so inclined to respond to the questions I posed in a more serious vein.

So, can you answer those questions? Because I can't. Who are the great, non-living, non-male, non-white, non-Euro composers, besides Clara Wieck?

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I'n generally not a proponent of quotas, " political correctness ",and such silly nonsense, but I do find it rather odd that a Music Critic, a White, Male Caucasian himself, lists not a single Music Composer on his list here than is other than a White, Male Causasian. There is not a single Music Composer of Color on this list. Im not struck by the absence so much of recent Music Composers, as much as I'm struck by the absence of persons of Color. Where there not great Music Composers from long ago from the Far East ? From the Continent of Africa ? The Continent of Asia ? He excluded more than 3/ 4ths of the Music World in his list. According to this Music Critic, all the Greatest Music Composers of the World were from.... the West ? And all were White ? I also could not help but notice that this Music Critic writes for the New York Times. How fitting is that, when the New York Times Editorial Board frequently wants to lecture people about the need to be..... " inclusive ". Did anybody else find it odd that this list of " The Greatest Music Composers of all time " had not a single Women or Persons of Color on it ? And that it was put together by a White, Male, Caucasian, Music Critic employed by the New York Times, to boot ? The most important attribute of an thoroughly educated person is to possess intellectual curiosity ie, to always think of the question... " how can this be true ? ".

Maybe those people listed "are" the best composers of all time. (not like you can categorize something like that anyway). Why are we even focusing on their ethnicity, it should just be about their music. And frankly you said the critic was a "classical" music critic and I find that to be a very specific part of music. Most classical composers were white guys. The "greatest composers" ever is probably in reference to greatest "classical" composers and music from other parts of the world can not be catagorized as classical.

The list would have different people if they decided to consider Jazz compositions.

It's clear if the list was supposed to be the greatest composers ever across every form of music then that's totally different. But this list is not for that when reading between the lines.

Edited by charlie1223
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I think you ask a reasonable question, but I think that the answer is: not by the standards of Western classical music, which is probably all that Tommasini feels qualified to judge. In a somewhat analogous situation, I was lately perusing the lists of all-time ten best films issued every ten years since 1952 by the British film magazine, Sight & Sound, based on international polls of film critics, and observed that of 88 films listed in eight polls from six decades (a second poll of film directors was added starting in 1992, and there have been numerous ties), 39 were from the U.S., 39 were from Europe (mostly France, Italy, and the U.S.S.R.); and 10 were from Asia (9 from Japan). Noting in passing that no African or South American films are listed, I'd like to point out that the list has yet had only one film from India, the nation which has long led the world in movie production. But India's films are overwhelmingly sentimental musicals that have little to do with the artistic goals tha critics outside of India care for.

This is an astute observation it seems to me. We all do tend to look at Music through a deeply personal frame of reference lens. This Music Critic from the NY Times may very well be either ill prepared, or simply disinclined to judge other Music Compositions that he is either unfamilar with, or simply does not like. He is a white Caucasian and as a result it would not be that all unusual for him to exclude the Music Composers from Non Western Countries. I just thought it interesting that it came from a Music Critic employed with the New York Times too.

You also made a good point about any listing of 'The best movies of all time". If we asked this question in China, for example, one would naturally expect to see Movies listed that those of us from the West have never heard of. Likewise, many people from China have not seen " Gone with the Wind " or " Casablanca " either. And if they did, they might yawn and be bored, who knows.

Edited by BRASSO
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:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

In all seriousness, could we keep this thread as a discussion of Bartok, and maybe a few other neglected composers

Sure, but when you say " neglected composers", what do you mean by " neglected " ? Could you define the term a little more precisely ? ( the reason I asked, is that it's hard to think of Bartok as a " neglected " composer, yet be ranked as one of " The 10 Best Music Composers of all Time " by a Music Critic for the NY Times.) When you say " neglected " are you referring about his musical peers and musical colleagues, friends and family were for Bela Bartok at his death ? If so, there have been quite a few other Music Composers that have died a death of inglorious passing. We could list those. But that might be a bit morbid, imo.

Edited by BRASSO
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Maybe those people listed "are" the best composers of all time. (not like you can categorize something like that anyway). Why are we even focusing on their ethnicity, it should just be about their music. And frankly you said the critic was a "classical" music critic and I find that to be a very specific part of music. Most classical composers were white guys. The "greatest composers" ever is probably in reference to greatest "classical" composers and music from other parts of the world can not be catagorized as classical.

The list would have different people if they decided to consider Jazz compositions.

It's clear if the list was supposed to be the greatest composers ever across every form of music then that's totally different. But this list is not for that when reading between the lines.

Good point. The NY Times critic was indeed limiting his list to " Classical Music ". As most of us have learned in our studies, the " Classical " realm, as defined in the Western World, is encapsaulated by White, European, Musical Composers, composing Music in the " classical sense " which exclusively was " Western " ( ie US, European, Russian, etc) To this extent, his list was not all that bad, although I might have included Antonin Dvorak in any top 10 list of the greatest Classical Composers of all time for sure. But again, all Music is deeply personal... and it's all about preference.... and exposure.

Edited by BRASSO
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