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Judging Amplification and Electronics


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So - no anecdotal evidence on your point, right? if there had been you would have presented it rather than attack my wording....

The anecdotal evidence is in the fact that corps are auditioning youth on electronics, many youth are playing the electronics, many other youth are being cut from corps because the electronic positions are full, and any corps which wants to use electronic s can readily find the performers to play them. If it were turning away youth the corps would have a hard time filling the positions, and if other youth performers were offended by the electronics the corps would be having a hard time finding horn/percussion/guard performers.

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so, you think a corps is going to take a kid on tour all summer, and because he doesn't play an instrument, he's going to get half off tour fees? Really??

I guess you dont realize what it costs to feed, house and transport these kids.

A) I do know the costs and the dues do not even come close to covering those costs; B) Many corps already offer membership discounts to some members for various reasons; and C) It could be associated with an internship situation for a music production student; there are many options available outside of traditional thinking to make sure the sound board is controlled by an "of-age" youth.

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A) I do know the costs and the dues do not even come close to covering those costs; B) Many corps already offer membership discounts to some members for various reasons; and C) It could be associated with an internship situation for a music production student; there are many options available outside of traditional thinking to make sure the sound board is controlled by an "of-age" youth.

Plus...the sound person can run the met at rehearsals!

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Plus...the sound person can run the met at rehearsals!

This was a joke I hope (which I think was the case). The sound person, to do things correctly during rehearsals, would have to closely monitor all lines, mics, inputs, outputs, balances, channels, et al so as to make sure everything is done correctly during the actual performance. Moreover, many of the problems with the sound issues in DCI are due to corps staff trying to make things streamlined for ease instead of using various mic placements and multiple channel inputs for proper mixing. Also, since there is such a limited time for set-up/tear-down for performances, some rehearsal time each day should be devoted to practicing that set-up/tear-down aspect (similar to how NASCAR pit crews practice pit stops during the week). By the way, for those who are barking at how bad the sound problems are within DCI, my ideas to take the sound system process more seriously and focus a single youth music production student on the sound system would certainly go a long way to fixing those issues; and it would also assure that a youth, not an adult, was in control of all live performance aspects.

Edited by Stu
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So you are stating that there would be no educational value whatsoever for a 20 year-old music production student to gain real-life touring and show experience using a complex sound board matrix? Really? You do realize that there are two sides here concerning electronic sound: (the performance side of playing the keyboards/synths/electric instruments, and the production side of various microphones, wires, channels, mix, channel balance, etc...). No educational value in that production side at all? Again really?

Just to be clear I'm only talking about the production side as you put it. IOW the person up in the stands and not the on field performer. First I'm reading that the person in the stands does not have to one of the corps members and might be an adult. Second how complex is that sound board matrix and what does that person actually do? Does it control the volume of the main amps or does it also control the types and tone coming from the electronics being played by the on field member(s). If the on field members have total control than the sound board person controls volume and not much else. If the off field person controls/change the sound produced by the members, well that gets into an area I don't agree with. And by "controlling sound" I mean things other than volume and not volume.

Disclaimer: Not meant to be a flaming response, most of my post is questions as I read conflicting things in the posts on electronics.

Edit: After reading the above post I have another question: Who actually does the things you described to MikeD? Is it a student or an adult....

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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The anecdotal evidence is in the fact that corps are auditioning youth on electronics, many youth are playing the electronics, many other youth are being cut from corps because the electronic positions are full, and any corps which wants to use electronic s can readily find the performers to play them. If it were turning away youth the corps would have a hard time filling the positions, and if other youth performers were offended by the electronics the corps would be having a hard time finding horn/percussion/guard performers.

I have to admit that I don't watch the pit that much but from what I do see and know very few stay on one instrument through the entire show. Crown last year is a notable exception. So they're coming to be part of the corps not just because there are electronics. Nobody said "oh goody - DCI has added electronics - I never was interested before, but now I'm going to join a corps!!!"

The loss is in paying spectators. Without them nothing will be played.

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Just to be clear I'm only talking about the production side as you put it. IOW the person up in the stands and not the on field performer. First I'm reading that the person in the stands does not have to one of the corps members and might be an adult. Second how complex is that sound board matrix and what does that person actually do? Does it control the volume of the main amps or does it also control the types and tone coming from the electronics being played by the on field member(s). If the on field members have total control than the sound board person controls volume and not much else. If the off field person controls/change the sound produced by the members, well that gets into an area I don't agree with. And by "controlling sound" I mean things other than volume and not volume.

Disclaimer: Not meant to be a flaming response, most of my post is questions as I read conflicting things in the posts on electronics.

Edit: After reading the above post I have another question: Who actually does the things you described to MikeD? Is it a student or an adult....

> Who actually does the things you described to MikeD? Is it a student or an adult....

Currently in DCI an "adult" does all the things I described to MikeD; and all of that stuff does effect the sound quality during an actual judged performance; so an adult does impact the scoring outcome during a live judged performance.

Not being silly here, nor am I trying to belittle or condescend, but many people are not fully aware of what a sound engineer actually does, or should do, during a live concert. It is way more than plugging in some wires, turning a volume knob, then leaving it alone. To accomplish it correctly an array of mics, lines, inputs, outputs, etc... are ran into anywhere from 16 - 30 channels on a sound board (sometimes up to 64) and those channels have a plethora of control aspects which are manipulated in live-time by the sound engineer. For example, it is the sound engineer which controls solo volumes in which mic output must be turned up or down, and the sound engineer also controls panning, channel mixing, etc... (all of which must change during the live performance to correctly blend the different musical passages). Even the mic placements on a marimba can make a huge difference (directional mic vs non directional, mics place under the bars or on top changes the wave content entering the mic, the mic on the low end picks up differently than the top end, separate mics on separate channels to isolate one marimba or several mics into one channel) and this is just concerning one marimba. Times that by four marimbas, two vibes, electronic keyboards, electric guitars, electric bass, vocal mics, trigger mechanisms, etc... and you end up with a vast complex system on many, many channels which have to be manipulated in real-time for best sound production.

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I have to admit that I don't watch the pit that much but from what I do see and know very few stay on one instrument through the entire show. Crown last year is a notable exception. So they're coming to be part of the corps not just because there are electronics. Nobody said "oh goody - DCI has added electronics - I never was interested before, but now I'm going to join a corps!!!"

Sorry; but there certainly are electric guitar players, electric bass players, electric keyboard players, etc... who are now joining a DCI corps, or a WGI drumline, whereas in the past they did not entertain that thought before.

The loss is in paying spectators. Without them nothing will be played.

What spectator loss? The "overall" attendance (when combining all shows nationwide) is up; mainly due to the power regionals (San Antonio, Atlanta, etc...) containing all of the WC corps.

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Thanks for the info Stu, I had no idea on most of that.... And the backgound on my feelings on this is I started out doing a lot of shows in the "lesser" Sr circuit so saw a lot of corps with balance issues due to small numbers and/or lack of talent. Instead of thinking "this sucks I want to see full coprs only" I ended up becoming interested in how these corps worked with the handicaps they had. Well.... some tried some didn't.... Do the same thing today watching DCA Class A corps so some things never change. :tongue: True, working sound levels with amps or whatever sounds better, but I just get more entertainment out of everything being done by humans on the field only. Just adds something else to watch and listen for....

LOL reminds me of the old Red Skelton show.... Red admitted years later that there were mics above the audience where the show was done. If one part of the audience wasn't laughing too loud, they'd up the mics where people were laughing to make the audience reaction sound better.

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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Sorry; but there certainly are electric guitar players, electric bass players, electric keyboard players, etc... who are now joining a DCI corps, or a WGI drumline, whereas in the past they did not entertain that thought before.

Yes they did - they just learned to play a horn or a marimba.....

What spectator loss? The "overall" attendance (when combining all shows nationwide) is up; mainly due to the power regionals (San Antonio, Atlanta, etc...) containing all of the WC corps.

I for one bailed at the end of '05 and just went back last year - electronics to blame. You don't really think I'm alone in this, do you?

Again - this argument has all been done before to no good conclusion. You are clearly as invested in your pov as I am in mine. Nothing to gain by continuing.....

Edited by Grandpa
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