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Cavaliers hornline


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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The late 80s/early 90s Cavaliers brass lines were almost perennially "weak" (meaning poor quality as opposed to volume). Poor tone, bad ensemble balance, missed attacks, etc. You can listen to those shows and hear the mistakes pretty regularly. Comparatively, you figure from 1986-1992 The Cavaliers were Top 3 in six of those seven season, but they weren't Top 3 in brass until 1992 (3rd in brass, and still 0.6 behind Star).

1986: Corps 3rd, Percussion 5th, Visual 2nd, Effect 3rd, Brass 4th

1987: Corps 3rd, Percussion 5th, Visual 3rd, Effect 3rd, Brass 5th

1988: Corps 5th, Percussion 3rd, Visual 2nd, Effect 5th, Brass 6th

1989: Corps 3rd, Percussion 2nd, Visual 3rd, Effect 3rd, Brass 4th

1990: Corps 2nd, Percussion 2nd, Visual 3rd, Effect 1st, Brass 4th

1991: Corps 2nd, Percussion 1st, Visual 1st, Effect 3rd, Brass 4th

1992: Corps 1st, Percussion 1st, Visual 1st, Effect 2nd, Brass 3rd

When the same caption is your lowest scoring and lowest placing caption for six consecutive years, that's a sign that it's a weakness.

I will agree with you.

Here's a little anecdote. We had a show in 1988 and were getting our equipment etc to go to warm up before the show. as we started moving towards a warm up area, from over a hill we heard a horn line warming up. Some of our horn players commented on the sound of that horn line speculating that it was a div II corps. When we crested the hill what did we see? The Cavaliers horn line warming up.

nuff said

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Ignorance at its best. Maybe you should give that 'irrelevant' show another listen. Although I have not been a fan of the Cavies since 06, their 2002 show is one of my favorites to listen to. Have you heard the release in that ballad? You should go listen to the release in the ballad.

As previously mentioned, the last 5 years haven't done much for me. I do feel like they opened up some last year, but the brass book was far too dull. I thought they were lucky to get 2nd in brass last year.

dull? really?

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Maybe because the 2010 book was harder than anything the Cavies have tackled since 2004 (and possibly 2007/09), but I thought their brass sound was inferior to past versions of the decade (although still excellent overall). I heard a lot of overblowing, and seeing Cavies at semifinals sandwiched between BC and BD really revealed a difference in quality of sound. I strongly disagree with their 2nd place score in brass on finals, as I would have had them 5th (albeit neck and neck with Cadets/Crown). But I'm no judge, nor do I pretend to be one.

I would take a 2002-2006 hornline over 2010 any day. Just my preferences I guess, but I always thought the Cavies brass sound from that era was unique and made them stand out. But maybe SCV will take over in that department now, considering their new brass staff.

All my opinions of course.

A couple of things:

1) I have mentioned this before. Brass performance is a FIELD caption. What you hear on the field may be different than what you hear in the stands. The Cavaliers on the field were obviously very strong, much stronger than they were upstairs as evidenced by the scores the judges gave them (on average 2nd in horns and 4th or 5th in ensemble music). Despite what many people think, the judges DO know what they are doing (especially the ones judging finals week) and they generally do get things right. So, unless you were on the field you really can't judge the hornline because the perspective is different (sometimes shockingly different in my experience). For example, if a group stands around a lot while playing (which the cavaliers do not) verses a group that marches a lot while playing (which the cavaliers do) you begin to factor in those things into the WHAT and the HOW. BD was first in all three nights finals week. Cavaliers were on 2nd two nights (quarters and finals), but third at semis. The interesting thing by looking at the recap is that the blue devils never lost horns all year. I am pretty certain that they only lost a sub-caption once. That was semis night in which they lost the top box (The WHAT) to the cavaliers which was consequently the cavaliers lowest placing night in horns of finals week. It should also be noted that while they got first in the top box (musicianship), they got 5th in the bottom box (technique).

2) While you may take their 2002-2006 hornline any day over 2010 it is a but hard to compare the two. 02-06 was talent that was incomparable to what they had in 09-10. The 2001-2006 years had MONSTER players all over the field. Everyone knew that if you made the cavaliers in those years you were going to be first or second with a very strong possibility of the former over the latter. In addition, they were marching 64 horns which meant they had 16 less players over many of the hornlines now which only lead to more quality on average from player to player.

They had the same brass staff from 2007-2009 as they did in 2001-2006, so what happened? It's obvious. They stopped getting the same kind of players and they had to teach more of them because the alumni were going crazy over not being able to hear the horns. I can guarantee that their approach in teaching or playing did not change from 2001-2009. If anyone knows the UH method, it is pretty much a sin to change it. So what did change? The talent... and it is easy to sound great when you have the best talent out there (which they clearly did in those years from 01-06).

3) I am curious to see what the SCV staff does too. I have said this before, but I do not expect them to have the same kind of success simply because they wont have the same kind of talent that they were accustomed to before. Some of those years when The Cavaliers had average talent (average for the top 5 at least) those hornlines did not sound very good. 2007 was horrible as was 2009. 2008 was quite good, when they played and if you could hear them.

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How do you guys think the arranger and staff did compared to previous years?

I know people used to always complain about volume.. was this fixed?

Do you prefer the new or old?

Where do you predict them going in 2011?

Just haven't heard or seen much about the topic :)

1) I think too many people last season were busy complaining about Blue Devils to worry about the stock 'Cavs-hornline-is-too-quiet" debate :tongue:

2) I did read comments about people satisfied with the notable-difference in volume with 2010 Cavaliers vs. past years

3) I personally had zero complaints with Cavaliers brass sound the last decade. That being said, I appreciated the seemingly louder output with their brass line. I never saw them live, so my thoughts on minimal in regards to volume, but they seemed a bit more "intense" in approach than previous years.

And I REALLY liked their show this year, their best IMO since 2006: so perhaps that biases my opinion a bit.

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Just my opinions....

I think the reputation of the Cavaliers' brass given here is exaggerated....in both directions. The lines of this past decade don't uniformly stand out quite as much to me as to some people (i.e. 2000 vs. 2001). Conversely, the 1990s brass sections were by no means "weak", unless failing to win captions as often as they did visually constitutes "weakness".

Yeah I can see why you feel that way. I for one thought that some of those 90's hornlines were pretty good while some others were pretty awful. The issue was consistency. 94 and 96 were pretty decent hornlines. 95 & 97 were pretty awful. Either way, when you compared them to the other captions they usually were the weak link. I remember one of their former brass instructors saying that all you had to do with the cavaliers was to finish in the top 3 in horns and you would win DCI.

The Cavaliers have unfortunately always made visual a priority over music. With as many sets that they do and direction changes across phrases, and rapid tempi, etc., it is not surprising that the brass playing is usually the first thing to suffer. I can only imagine how hard it is to teach a hornline with those kinds of visual demands placed on the brass players.

As far as the early 2000's go, I think that they definitely do stand out for being so uniform. The sonority of the hornline was fantastic! Unfortunately, it wasn't all that loud and more importantly it did not make me feel anything when I listened to it except "Wow. They really do balance well and play in tune." Besides that there was not much to get into about their brass playing IMO, but the shows were so freakin cool that it didn't matter. However, when the shows became a bit less innovative or fan-friendly (or whatever you want to call it) they stopped getting the same kind of talent because the brass playing was just nothing to write home about except for "Wow. They really do balance well and play in tune."

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As far as sound level goes, they took a step in the right direction. They just sounded more confident.

I liked parts of the arrangements last summer, but as a whole, not so much. I liked 2008 more. And before that, 2004. Last year left me wanting in the brass section. I don't know why they got 2nd in brass. Obviously my opinions differ from the judges on finals night.

...which is fine.

If it makes you feel better, I saw some of the cavaliers brass staff at a local establishment after finals and congratulated them on their finish overall and the brass placement. They of course were happy about it, but also acted a little surprised that they finished as high as they did in horns.

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Their brass was definitely better in 2010 than in the past few years.

If I remember correctly, their brass staff in 2010 was the brass staff Troopers had from 2007 - 2009. If you listen to those Troopers shows, you can really hear how talented that staff is. They worked the Troopers hornline up to finals caliber. I can't wait to hear how Cavaliers sound now that that staff has the opportunity to work with even more talented students.

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2) While you may take their 2002-2006 hornline any day over 2010 it is a but hard to compare the two. 02-06 was talent that was incomparable to what they had in 09-10. The 2001-2006 years had MONSTER players all over the field.

I have heard similar things. A Cavaliers fan/parent told me at 2007 Finals that a lot of brass talent aged out in 2006 and they were marching a very young and inexperienced horn line for their Billy Joel show. Losing both talent AND veteran leadership will set any corps, any section back in a hurry. Supposedly the Cavaliers have been building their horn line back up since then, and 2010 was the first season where it really appeared to bear musical fruit (er, so to speak).

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How do you guys think the arranger and staff did compared to previous years?

I know people used to always complain about volume.. was this fixed?

Do you prefer the new or old?

Where do you predict them going in 2011?

Just haven't heard or seen much about the topic :)

IMO, it was the most I have enjoyed them since 06, but I'll still take the 00-01 soun.

Did suck not being able to hear the mic'd trio at finals

Edited by Jeff Ream
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No offense, but if you didn't love their brass sound in 2002 you're completely and utterly tone deaf.

For the longest time brass was the Cavaliers' weak spot. It pretty much cost them the title in both 90 and 91, but brass managed to not "lose" the title in 92 and 95 (no doubt visual and percussion still powered the corps to the Championship in both years). Starting in 1999, though, Cavies brass started to come around, and by 2002 they were a marvel of great tone and amazing intonation. 02-06 Cavies brass lines were all delicious, but then they regressed. The 07-09 weren't quite as strong, and I think the staff knew it because they wrote a set of shows (07-08) that really avoided featuring the brass for extended sections (I think I counted in one of those two--2007 or 2008, can't remember--that the Cavaliers brass was playing for about 6 minutes and NOT playing for about 5.5 minutes of an 11.5 minute show).

2010 was much, much better compared to the previous three years. Definitely a step in the right direction that I hope they continue on in 2011.

I found them clean in 02, with 4 volumes:

on, off, right end zone, left end zone

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