chaddyt Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Haven't read through the pages, but here Are my picks for the most overrated shows of the last decade: 2003 SCV 2004 Cadets 2005 Cavaliers (as much as I love it this show) 2006 Cavaliers 2007 Blue Stars 2007 Academy 2007 Blue Devils 2007 Cadets 2008 Blue Devils 2009 Cavaliers 2010 Carolina Crown (had to do it) Was "Living With The Past" that hyped? Everything I've heard from folks said it was probably one of their weakest offerings in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Nope, Phantom's performance made them a champion. As much as BD's made them such in the following two years.Mike Agreed. The notion that Phantom won because of hype is absurd. Sorry to burst your bubble Glory, but thinking you had a hand in Phantoms win because you liked them, well whatever you need to tell yourself I guess....DCI judging is imperfect, but there is zero evidence they are swayed in the least by audience opinion. In fact, it's quite to the contrary. I would argue the judging sticks to the sheets in SPITE of audience opinion. I didn't mean to suggest that Phantom '08 didn't perform a championship-worthy show. They did. They performed to a level at which they could be champion. That's not the end of the championship dissection, however. Many years more than one corps is worthy, and the difference between first, second or even third might not owe to the the feet, fingers or lips. My point is that some placements are decided by hype and other conditions over which the performers might not have direct control (maybe Cadets 2007?). In the 2008 case, Phantom's performance benefited from the hype. I have no doubt it helped the performers and thus the performmance. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it influenced the judges as well. That's not in any way meant to diminish Phantom's accomplishment. They were great. And they surely performed their way to this championship. We can't, however, pretend they performed in a vacuum or before automaton judges impervious to outside influences. No one can prove anything objectively here. What we can do is add up all the objective evidence to arive at informed speculation. Mine is clear: Phantom won the championship in 2008 by winning the hype, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) In the 2008 case, Phantom's performance benefited from the hype. I have no doubt it helped the performers and thus the performmance. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it influenced the judges as well. Phantom won the championship in 2008 by winning the hype, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. HH So,... your reasoning and logic here is that Phantom Regiment won the 2008 Title based upon fan " hype " that possibly influenced the judges, and that the Blue Devils won the 2010 Title because why ? That the Blue Devils show was completely devoid of fan " hype " and yet this lack of fan hype influenced the judges to the benefit of the Blue Devils in capturing the 2010 Title ? Did I get your logic correct in the effect that " hype " has in DCI placements ? Edited May 12, 2011 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bccadet09 Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Haven't read through the pages, but here Are my picks for the most overrated shows of the last decade: 2003 SCV 2004 Cadets 2005 Cavaliers (as much as I love it this show) 2006 Cavaliers 2007 Blue Stars 2007 Academy 2007 Blue Devils 2007 Cadets 2008 Blue Devils 2009 Cavaliers 2010 Carolina Crown (had to do it) Strongly disagree with those two. And not because I marched one of them.... I remember seeing BD 2008 live in West Chester and thought "####, they're going to win. They're just that good." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) I didn't mean to suggest that Phantom '08 didn't perform a championship-worthy show. They did. They performed to a level at which they could be champion. That's not the end of the championship dissection, however. Many years more than one corps is worthy, and the difference between first, second or even third might not owe to the the feet, fingers or lips. My point is that some placements are decided by hype and other conditions over which the performers might not have direct control (maybe Cadets 2007?). In the 2008 case, Phantom's performance benefited from the hype. I have no doubt it helped the performers and thus the performmance. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it influenced the judges as well. That's not in any way meant to diminish Phantom's accomplishment. They were great. And they surely performed their way to this championship. We can't, however, pretend they performed in a vacuum or before automaton judges impervious to outside influences. No one can prove anything objectively here. What we can do is add up all the objective evidence to arive at informed speculation. Mine is clear: Phantom won the championship in 2008 by winning the hype, and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. HH A= the crowd hype B= Phantom 08 C= overall performance increase D= The win. A+B=C , but based on you're statement you're saying A+B=D, and IMO, C=D. If you apply your logic to 2010 BD, they should have lost based on LACK of hype alone. Edited May 12, 2011 by BozzlyB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvs me sum mello! Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Care to explain this one a bit more? Not really trying to pick a fight, I just think you have an interesting opinion here, that could make some more sense if you explained it out. What about their shows either doesn't do it for you, or makes them seem over-hyped? Is it just cause of their history, 38 years in Finals, 6 championships, that just makes people love them and hype them as when they'll make the jump back up? I don't know, I'd just like your read on it. They're usually hyped from outside of the top 3 each year as the "Corps that's going to win our next championship. This is the year!" But they always end up about where they were last year + or - a rank or two. Sounds like the definition of hype to me. The show can still be very enjoyable, and I have enjoyed SCV shows this decade more years then not, but still be over-hyped. Also add in the fact that BD is the bigger powerhouse and just down the road and it seems the reason fans over-hype that year's product is so they can pump themselves and their fan-base to try and put themselves over "Big Brother BD" again. Kind of hard to quantify but I totally get what he is saying. Both are California powerhouses but SCV just always seems to be sucking hind titty to BD. Can I say that here?? Yep. Well, apparently you can. I just wonder when the change happened. Cause I know back in the day, SCV was the top, and BD was chasing them, but when did it switch? And I think another part of the problem is SCV itself. Someone else mentioned it about Phantom, but i think that PR and SCV are pretty much the Chicago Cubs of drum corps. i think that when we see them at the top, it's amazing, but there are so many people out there that love them, they try and turn every year into "that" year. And when it doesn't happen, "there's always next year. next year's show will be the one. This corps will take them to a ring," and that's a ton of pressure for the corps to operate under. Just my read on it. I agree. But regardless of motivation, it's still hype that goes unfulfilled. I guess I see hype and a following for a product that didn't do as well as advertised the same as an "over rated" product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 So,... your reasoning and logic here is that Phantom Regiment won the 2008 Title based upon fan " hype " that possibly influenced the judges, and that the Blue Devils won the 2010 Title because why ? That the Blue Devils show was completely devoid of fan " hype " and yet this lack of fan hype influenced the judges to the benefit of the Blue Devils in capturing the 2010 Title ? Did I get your logic correct in the effect that " hype " has in DCI placements ? You said "based." I didn't. I said hype was one factor. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 A= the crowd hype B= Phantom 08 C= overall performance increase D= The win. A+B=C , but based on you're statement you're saying A+B=D, and IMO, C=D. If you apply your logic to 2010 BD, they should have lost based on LACK of hype alone. A better example is BD 07. That show was more excellent than all but one show for certain and maybe better than every show. The absence of hype for BD 07 was one reason why that show lost by so slim a margin. If we must discuss BD 10, then I would say it won in part because no other show had enough hype to close the gap from second to first. BD won in 2010 on excellence alone. It won in spite of the lack of hype. Had Crown skipped 2009 and done Greener in 10, who knows? By the way, is that the new math? I don't get it. HH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BozzlyB Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 A better example is BD 07. That show was more excellent than all but one show for certain and maybe better than every show. The absence of hype for BD 07 was one reason why that show lost by so slim a margin. If we must discuss BD 10, then I would say it won in part because no other show had enough hype to close the gap from second to first. BD won in 2010 on excellence alone. It won in spite of the lack of hype. Had Crown skipped 2009 and done Greener in 10, who knows? By the way, is that the new math? I don't get it. HH Calling it math might be a stretch lol. Math and I are not friends. You seem pretty convinced that hype alone has a noticeable effect on the placement outcomes in DCI, and really if you're going to say that you can't just apply it to first place it has to be (potentially) true for every place. That's fine, I guess I just disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Calling it math might be a stretch lol. Math and I are not friends. You seem pretty convinced that hype alone has a noticeable effect on the placement outcomes in DCI, and really if you're going to say that you can't just apply it to first place it has to be (potentially) true for every place. That's fine, I guess I just disagree. emphasis added Not alone. Hype is one of many factors. But for this discussion, we're talking about hype, which puts other factors such as performance as constants of a sort (not that they are actually constant but ... well ... you get it). Take Madison 2010. If you ask me, over-hyped. Madison 2010 was better than Madison 2009 by a long shot. Hype, however, was among the reasons for the 10th place finish, in my view. I thought BK performed better. But BK is the ultimate no-hype corps (only Glassmen might challenge in that category). Madison, on the other hand, is consistently over-hyped (you know the refrain). The symbiotic relationship between program, crowd and performance were worth plenty on Madison sheets on finals night. Is that a bad thing? No. Is it dishonest or disingenuous? No. It's part of competition in drum corps. Still, Madison's hype and all it was worth wasn't worth more than 10th place. Why? Becuase the program/performance didn't support more. Hype alone can't win you a championship. You still need the program and the excellence for that. Phantom had program, execution and the hype in 08. BD had program and execution in 09. Crown had all three that year, just not enough to top BD's excellence. And frankly, no one was close to BD's excellence in 10. I wonder though had Cavies captured more of the crowd sooner in the season ... HH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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