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"International Division?"


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I had the pleasure of seeing Yokohama Scouts last night in Greendale, WI. As usual, they were fantastic, as well as represented themselves as a very classy organization.

I'm sure this has come up in the past, but I'm wondering why Drum Corps INTERNATIONAL has an "international" class for competition. I'm assuming it's because there may be some things that the foreign corps do that may not be consistent with DCI rules (i.e., marching members over age 22, show length over or under DCI requirements, use of instrumentation that would be considered... (oops, never mind that one), etc.?). BTW, I have no idea if Yokohama Scouts have any members over age 22 (they didn't appear to), but over the years I'd heard discussions/rumors (true of false) that corps like "Beatrix" had members over the "legal" age for DCI competition, and thought that that may be a reason for DCI creating an international division.

Whatever the reason(s), aren't there already ways to deal with that beyond having these corps "compete" in an "International Division" (The term used last night when Yokohama's score was announced) by themselves? Even when an all age corps performs at a DCI event, they're classified as an all-age corps. I also don't recall any of the Canadian corps ever being classified into their own competitive class. I was also surprised to see that Jubal was considered a "World Class" corps, according to the DCI rankings board. Anyway, what's up with the competitive unit classifications?

Does anyone know the answer to why DCI has an "international" competitive class? Aren't all of the corps competing in DCI representative of an international community? It just seems silly to have a separate international division in a circuit claiming international participation/jurisdiction. Would "Drum Corps InterNational " be more accurate a name?

Thoughts? Facts?

Edited by nemesiscorps
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I had the pleasure of seeing Yokohama Scouts last night in Greendale, WI. As usual, they were fantastic, as well as represented themselves as a very classy organization.

I'm sure this has come up in the past, but I'm wondering why Drum Corps INTERNATIONAL has an "international" class for competition. I'm assuming it's because there may be some things that the foreign corps do that may not be consistent with DCI rules (i.e., marching members over age 22, show length over or under DCI requirements, use of instrumentation that would be considered... (oops, never mind that one), etc.?). BTW, I have no idea if Yokohama Scouts have any members over age 22 (they didn't appear to), but over the years I'd heard discussions/rumors (true of false) that corps like "Beatrix" had members over the "legal" age for DCI competition, and thought that that may be a reason for DCI creating an international division.

Whatever the reason(s), aren't there already ways to deal with that beyond having these corps "compete" in an "International Division" (The term used last night when Yokohama's score was announced) by themselves? Even when an all age corps performs at a DCI event, they're classified as an all-age corps. I also don't recall any of the Canadian corps ever being classified into their own competitive class. I was also surprised to see that Jubal was considered a "World Class" corps, according to the DCI rankings board. Anyway, what's up with the competitive unit classifications?

Does anyone know the answer to why DCI has an "international" competitive class? Aren't all of the corps competing in DCI representative of an international community? It just seems silly to have a separate international division in a circuit claiming international participation/jurisdiction. Would "Drum Corps InterNational " be more accurate a name?

Thoughts? Facts?

The only thing I can think of why there's a separate division for international corps is it would upset the balance of the slotting. Imagine if a corps like Yokohama was good enough to be a top 12 corps and knocking out an American corps? The BODs wouldn't be happy.

When I was a student in college, I spent a year in Japan on a student exchange program. I was the first person from my college to attend this particular university in Tokyo. To my great surprise and excitement, this university was the only university throughout Japan to have a drum corps. They were called The Royal Kilties.

Marching in Japan is very different from marching in the US. They usually perform their shows in a very large gymnasium. So, the marching is limited and not that intricate.

During my year in Japan, I was invited to attend the Royal Kilties performance at the national band competition at the Budokan. Their big competition were the Yokohama Inspires (I believe). In the end, Yokohama took first and the Kilties took 2nd.

I'm not sure if the Yokohama Scouts are an offshoot of the Yokohama Inspires. But it seems the Yokohama area has a very decent drum corps program.

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I can answer your question quite easily. When I marched in 2007, Yokohama Scouts had members as old as 27, and in 2008 Beatrix had members who definitely seemed way over the age limit.

Why aren't they encouraged to attend DCA then?

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I can answer your question quite easily. When I marched in 2007, Yokohama Scouts had members as old as 27, and in 2008 Beatrix had members who definitely seemed way over the age limit.

Thanks for the insight. I'd heard these kinds of reports before, but accuracy is always a question mark when info comes via the rumor mill. The Yokohama Scouts I saw last Friday actually appeared to be quite young, but appearances can be deceptive. I should add that all of this is of course, no big deal, but I find it interesting nonetheless. The question was posed to me by a guest (that I brought to their first drum corps show) as to why the Japanese corps was not competing with the others. My response... "That's a good question."

Anyway, if what you say about overage members is true, I wonder what the problem is with simply allowing these corps to perform in exhibition? Certainly, the audience would not be deprived of anything in enjoying the performance of a corps in exhibition. An alternative would be for the announcer to simply provide a short commentary on these units, and how they may differ from the other competing units, thus giving them their own competitive class. I would personally find additional information on the foreign corps to be very interesting and appropriate at a competitive event. Maybe such information is already provided in the World Championships Programs sold at finals?

As it stands right now, it's like a mysterious, sort of "wink-wink, nod and smile" practice of creating a special, completely separate competitive class for the foreign corps every time they participate in "competitions" in the United States (with no further explanation as to why). As a result, IMO it just seems that the "international" moniker of Drum Corps International is more of a fallacy than anything else, which somehow kind of lessens the notion of a "spirit of competition." Perhaps the new "partnership" between DCI and DCA can bring about a more suitable competitive format with a truly international foundation across the board, or at least a way to better explain how these units are classified for competition.

If we don't already have one, I think it would be cool to actually have a "World Cup-model" approach to what we do if someone could figure out a way to make that happen.

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So... if DCI is willing to allow over-age members for international corps within their own division, what determines international? I mean there used to be scads of Canadian corps. Could a Canadian corps with over-age members now be eligible for the international division? That would seem to encourage some new corps formation.

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So... if DCI is willing to allow over-age members for international corps within their own division, what determines international? I mean there used to be scads of Canadian corps. Could a Canadian corps with over-age members now be eligible for the international division? That would seem to encourage some new corps formation.

Another great point!

It seems that every time an all-age corps competes in DCI these days (i.e., Corpsvets, Renegades, Kilties, Sol-Cal Dream, etc.), they're classified into DCI's "All-Age" division, and judged using DCA sheets (Which raises another off-topic question; What is the level of training of DCI judges in using those DCA sheets?). I suspect that the use of DCA sheets was by request of those DCA corps. Anyway, why would those all-age corps not likewise have been classified into the "International Division," if that's how DCI now deals with overage participants?

Regardless, why are the "International Division" corps judged on Open Class sheets, as Yokohama Scouts were? Is "Jubal" considered an international corps this year? Were they not judged on World Class sheets at a recent show? If not, why? (They're currently listed on the World Class ranking board.) Will Jubal be "competing" in Michigan City tomorrow and Indianapolis on Thursday? If not, why? If so, against whom... Yokohama Scouts... everyone else? Will either of these two international corps perform in exhibition on Saturday evening? If so, how would it be determined which corps will perform?

Bottom line, as you appropriately asked; "What determines international?" Is DCI truly an "international" competitive circuit? Was this a rock better left unturned? :huh2:

We should also note that it is not yet confirmed that the 2011 Yokohama Scouts actually have overage members. That was simply one person's commentary referencing his 2007 experience, which is likewise yet unconfirmed.

Edited by nemesiscorps
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DCA is an international group,Inspires completed and won a spot in finals when they visited here knocking out an Amercian corps .The same thing happened with Kids Grove Scouts .Who again will return to DCA next season.2012.On finals night only the top 10 Open Class corps complete and the top 4 from Class A .Giving both groups a shot at finals night with the larger crowds .Maybe DCI could learn from that it sure has helpped DCA grow in the Class A div. Most if not all judges are DCA & DCI trained . If you look at recap sheets from both groups you would see that .And DCA score sheets are close to DCI but not the same .DCA goes more for the entertament of the fan than DCI .

Edited by Florida Sun
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I am pretty sure that Jubal is judged on Open Class sheets, and their score somehow got mixed with World Class scores.

The reason that there is an international division is mainly the age limit, I think. When corps from outside the usa have members over age and come to DCI to compete in the open class, I think there wouldn't be a corps having a problem with that. But when this corps seems to be really good, and starts beating other good corps in the competition, people will start to say it's not fair because the international corps march members way over the age limit, who probably have a lot more experience. So, to keep the competition fair, these corps are allowed to compete, but in a different division.

I march Beatrix', and also marched during our tour in 2008. We were the first corps since the 'open class' format, who were good enough to make finals. We got to compete in finals, but because we were in the international division, the 13rd placed corps in that moment, also got to compete, so 12 corps from the actual open class advanced to finals, including Beatrix', who actually placed 11th in semifinals. I believe memphis sound placed 13rd in semifinals that year, and also went on to finals.

About the comment about why international corps don't go to DCA because they mainly go to the USA for the DCI experience. It is a lot of many for these members (in 2008, our 'tour-fee' was 1350 euros, for 3.5 weeks), and when you pay that amount of money, you want to see some real good drumcorps. It's not only for the competition that these corps come to the USA, but also for the other drumcorps. And where for competition it is probably better to go to DCA, like Kidsgrove Scouts did last year and had a very good placement there, but for the drum corps experience, DCI is of course a lot more fun.

But, what we see now, is that every now and then a corps decides to compete in DCI and enter the international division. What I would like a lot more, if these corps get in contact with each other and decide to all go in the same year, and have a real tough competition in that class.

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