Michael Boo Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) My question would be who taught them that "drowning puppies" is an acceptable way to honor and respect our flag? (Not even sure what "drowning puppies" is supposed to mean in this usage. Is drowning puppies legal?) 1) I've never tried it, but I guess it's part of that different strokes for different folks belief system. 2) It's only legal to drown a puppy if it first tried to drown you. In that case, it would be self defense. Edited August 21, 2011 by Michael Boo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 The Flag Code states that: "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America." The problem with this is that "disrespect" is such an unbelievably subjective term. What is considered disrespectful by Triple Forte, Liahona, Stu, and others is not disrespectful to me (and others). Your looking at the code and saying well since I don't find it disrespectful...it must not be disrespectful at all...That is not how our US codes work. Have you ever heard ignorantia juris non excusat? I think they same applies here. Using your logic would then mean under this same code that the desecration of the flag must be "subjective" as well. "Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeZ Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I make it a point to check out the American Flag and honor guard at retreat at finals every year. Since retreats are not held during the season anymore, and for most corps it is a one time a year thing, I expect that there will be some mistakes presenting the Flag. I am not crazy upset when mistakes are made, but I do appreciate the corps that take the time to make sure the details are correct. Back when I marched (mid 90's) I felt like most members of the corps knew the proper way to display the Flag. Only now, do I realize that there were probably mistakes made at the first show or two of the year. When you did 30-35 retreats a year you had plenty of practice getting things right. In 2011 corps for the most part have one shot. Every the past few years at finals I always wonder if retreat will turn into a cluster *uck. How are traditions passed down. Do kids in corps today know about not going over the line, or is that no longer a big deal? I think the problems with the presentation of the flag is mostly due to the "one off" nature of retreats in 2011. Knowing that corps/kids are not purposely being disrespectful makes it hard for me to get my panties in a wad. The bottom line is that I would be all for more retreats throughout the year...even if only on the weekends. And yes, I do know the benefits to the corps of not having retreat. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room_101 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Your looking at the code and saying well since I don't find it disrespectful...it must not be disrespectful at all...That is not how our US codes work. Have you ever heard ignorantia juris non excusat? I think they same applies here. Using your logic would then mean under this same code that the desecration of the flag must be "subjective" as well. "Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." There's an interesting irony in your post here. You discuss ignorantia juris non excusat, which states that, basically, not knowing something is illegal doesn't make you innocent. And then you state a quote from the code: "Whoever knowingly mutilates..." ...interesting! Once again, I claim that the issue is with the writing of the code, NOT with how particular corps handled their flags on Finals night. Edited August 21, 2011 by Room_101 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerriTroop Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I can think of so many things I witnessed and heard at Finals that were more offensive than some set of antiquated rules that are, in my opinion, just a waste of extraneous effort. I think it is always worth a little extra effort to display the flag properly, with due respect. Strolling along as if it's a burden without proper guard is neither of those things. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) I just plain don't understand this mentality. I really believe that most Americans would NEVER notice if a flag doesn't have a spike or an eagle up top. If they did notice it, they probably wouldn't have known that it is somehow offensive, against the rules, or what-have-you (though I never saw any mention of this in the Code). Americans (again, my opinion) do have respect for the flag, and when they see it, all kinds of memories and emotions flow through their minds...with or without a spike on top, or someone guarding it for 15 minutes, etc. So you would REALLY rather there be no flag at all--to deprive everyone of the flag--than to have a flag without some little spike on top? I just don't get it. EDIT: I'm NOT trying to undermine anyone's feelings of pride in this country, and I am CERTAINLY not disrespecting those that have gone through our military over the last 200+ years. I just think the "all or nothing" mentality isn't worth it... ...it's the sacrifice of many for the benefit of only the very select few that want to see that spike on top (or whatever the error may be). My point wasn't about the type of flag pole utilized. To my knowledge, there is no such stipulation. This is my contention: If you are going to present a flag, present a flag. Do not purport that it is a military color guard by adding a weapon and attempting to execute some artistic vision of what a color guard is. There are SPECIFIC protocols to presenting a color guard detail. Present the flag in some other fashion. I'm not saying that it isn't right to do so. I'm saying that corps either need to figure out what a real color guard is or stop trying to look like something inspired by a military color guard detail There is a difference between these two: A saber held backwards at an imaginary Port Arms next to an American flag being held as per how it is held when spinning is NOT a color guard. It's some guard instructor's interpretation of a color guard. I've found that most people are cooperative about learning more about proper protocols. Before my high school band marched in the Inauguration Day Parade, our directors, knowing I was a member of our JROTC program, asked me about proper color guard protocol. Our band's color guard detail was changed from something similar to Crown's in that picture to follow the protocols of an actual color guard unit. Edited August 21, 2011 by DrillmanSop06 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room_101 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think it is always worth a little extra effort to display the flag properly, with due respect. Strolling along as if it's a burden without proper guard is neither of those things. That's fair, but though certain corps were "without proper guard," I really don't believe they were "trolling along as if [it were] a burden." Isn't that putting words in their mouths? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Room_101 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 My point wasn't about the type of flag pole utilized. To my knowledge, there is no such stipulation. This is my contention: If you are going to present a flag, present a flag. Do not purport that it is a military color guard by adding a weapon and attempting to execute some artistic vision of what a color guard is. There are SPECIFIC protocols to presenting a color guard detail. Present the flag in some other fashion. I'm not saying that it isn't right to do so. I'm saying that corps either need to figure out what a real color guard is or stop trying to look like something inspired by a military color guard detail. Ahh, okay...I misunderstood. Sorry about that! With that "all or nothing" mentality, you were simply referring to the actual "guarding of the colors," not to the act of presenting the flag overall. Thanks for the clarification! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrillmanSop06 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Ahh, okay...I misunderstood. Sorry about that! With that "all or nothing" mentality, you were simply referring to the actual "guarding of the colors," not to the act of presenting the flag overall. Thanks for the clarification! No problem - just wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstood! I could have been more clear in my initial posting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIS Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) I think it is always worth a little extra effort to display the flag properly, with due respect. Strolling along as if it's a burden without proper guard is neither of those things. I don't remember which corps it was in the parade - but I bet its the same one that bothered me. I wasn't offended by corps that didn't have an American Flag in the parade - I was bothered by the few (one in particular) that treated it like it was an annoying thing that had to be done. Its hard to define respect - but there was none shown by this corps. I would have rather had them leave the flag, and that unit, in the equipment truck (well, the unit could have stayed on the bus, they didn't have to get stored in the truck). This was not only disrespectful to the Flag but to the corps uniform they had on. But, it wasn't just some corps that have let flag etiquette go. Apparently the days of standing when the American Flag passes by in a parade have also passed. With the first flag approaching I hauled my old bones up to stand for it - then stood for the rest of the parade. There were very few around me that did the same thing. Edited August 21, 2011 by WIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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