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Michael Boo

The All-Cesario Awards

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This is an auto-reply: I am out rotating my tires and am unable to respond at this moment. I will then be having my chakras rebalanced, followed by having my aura waxed. When I achieve metaphysical enlightenment and appropriately rotated tire nirvana, I will catch up on my Internet responsibilities. Until then, please enjoy the roasted red pepper hummus in the refrigerator, along with the Tuscan herb pita chips that you'll find on the kitchen countertop.

What, no beverage? Nothing washes down Tuscan herb pita chips better than a liter bottle of Diet Deflection Cola! :tongue:

You and G are starting to look like the Goalie and the Sweeper!

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What, no beverage? Nothing washes down Tuscan herb pita chips better than a liter bottle of Diet Deflection Cola! :tongue:

You and G are starting to look like the Goalie and the Sweeper!

Beverages are always implied. I haven't tried the Diet Deflection Cola. Does it come in a rose-colored glass bottle?

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G,

I'm afraid I'm with Glory here buddy......you are nearly heroic in your effort to make the argument but it is so much of a "stretch" that I feel you're dragging us though a worm hole! Look, I get the sentiment....we are all pleased with the kind of shows this year and the general attitude and numbers of the crowd. That's a given. But when you break it down there really was only one (so called) violator in previous years. Saying that the Bluecoats are an example of abandoning their own musical style while coming out of a record year in 2010 of near hysteria about them....is laughable (it was a record for them, G). Who elso is on your little list here, Cavies, Madison, Blue Stars.....OMG, it just doesn't make any sense....and I'm really leaning into it, trying to see your points. Your pole vaulting over mouse turds!

Just for clarification, let's recap: The thread (tongue in cheek or otherwise) states that we should all be thankful to M.C. for saving Drum Corps....for turning it off of its path of self-destruction. OK? That sounds like the weather channel this last weekend! :rolleyes:

And your examples are specious at best.....and IMO don't remotely reflect the "huge difference" between the supposed old and supposed new.

Finally, I bolded this statement of yours for one reason.....irony......you appear to be celebrating non-similarity but you lead the charge when BD puts (what many feel) is the most non-similar show ever on the field in 2010 (both musically and visually). They were off the charts and completely unique.....so what was similar about it? And who the hell was copying them? In short, the only thing missing in your "group think" argument was the group. In fact, as I have mentioned many times before, only two corps may have bought in to some of the parts of what BD was doing to win....CC and Cavies....period!!!!! Although one could argue that SCV was dabbling this year.

Maybe M.C. or Boo can find what you're looking for here, some of us in this thread just don't see it. I gave you my explanation....evidently it's not enough! You see a Category 3 Hurricane and I see a dust devil :bluedevil: !

Plan (or should I say "Youngin'", for you surely don't remember the Bluecoats of yore), you're actually making my argument for me. Let me clear you up a bit...later.

While doing my "homework" to try to respond to your comments (tripe, all tongue.gif), I had just enough wine in me (I got home a little early today) to close the study door and listen to some recent Bluecoats. I started with '08 but got hooked on 2010. I had almost forgotten how much I LOVE that show, even if it is fraught with examples of my point. I'll formulate an appropriately witty and well-researched answer in due time. But before that I'd like for you to go HERE and crank up your speakers. This is not a point to make (yet) but rather my sharing with you what I think is a wonderful time listening to what Asphalt Cocktail could have been had Bluecoats not yielded to the power of FTL. It's just a lot of fun.

If you didn't know (I'm SURE you did!), AC was written to depict a NYC drunk's cab ride home after closing his favorite watering hole. This is a view from HIS standpoint, not our watching him stagger. It makes it all that much more fun and. The Michigan State Wind Ensemble just cranked this thing from beginning to end. I think you'll like it. There's a wonderful YT video of some high school group doing this and they employed a small, metal trash can filled with steel parts; the kid playing it was having a ball counting 7/8 and 4/4.

Enjoy!

Edited by garfield

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Plan (or should I say "Youngin'", for you surely don't remember the Bluecoats of yore), you're actually making my argument for me. Let me clear you up a bit...later.

While doing my "homework" to try to respond to your comments (tripe, all tongue.gif), I had just enough wine in me (I got home a little early today) to close the study door and listen to some recent Bluecoats. I started with '08 but got hooked on 2010. I had almost forgotten how much I LOVE that show, even if it is fraught with examples of my point. I'll formulate an appropriately witty and well-researched answer in due time. But before that I'd like for you to go HERE and crank up your speakers. This is not a point to make (yet) but rather my sharing with you what I think is a wonderful time listening to what Asphalt Cocktail could have been had Bluecoats not yielded to the power of FTL. It's just a lot of fun.

If you didn't know (I'm SURE you did!), AC was written to depict a NYC drunk's cab ride home after closing his favorite watering hole. This is a view from HIS standpoint, not our watching him stagger. It makes it all that much more fun and. The Michigan State Wind Ensemble just cranked this thing from beginning to end. I think you'll like it. There's a wonderful YT video of some high school group doing this and they employed a small, metal trash can filled with steel parts; the kid playing it was having a ball counting 7/8 and 4/4.

Enjoy!

Thanks G. It's a great piece! Also, you may have forgotten but BD (and by extension my "youngin") had AC in their repertoire last year as well. I heard it several times before BD yanked it. I'll be waiting with baited breath for your next volley, and baited breath is not something you can solve with tic tac.

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H, I actually brought up the FN to review all the shows and list their similarities, but then I decided I didn't need to.

This is a "group think" issue. One entity discovers what winning takes and, soon, all others are mimicking it. It's the same in several parts of life. There are a relative few who seek their own way.

...I could go on but I won't. I'll challenge you, instead, to go watch some of last years' shows with an eye towards their similarities.

You just don't see that in 2011. Yes, there was some, granted. But, IMO, considerably less than 2010.

As I said, individuality seems again in vogue. I didn't say all the corps have been cured yet.

I've tried to focus on this over the past day. I agree there are many common elements in many corps many of which are following the leader. I suppose, however, that's about as much common ground as you and I will find on this one. I can't concede that the commonality we agree we see is somehow unique to recent drum corps experience. Nor can I concede that 2011 represented a significant departure - or at least one that was centrally inspired by Cesario or someone else.

Take the Cadets. Granted their drum features the past couple of years were different. The 2010 edition was more in common with other drum features. The 2011 edition wasn't, in my view. Okay, one for the Cesario difference. But what else? Was the approach to the brass program different beyond the split teams? Guard? Or drill? I don't think so. I think many elements of the show were consistent in approach from previous years though admittedly the major thematic design made it seem fresher and better.

BD? More melodic. Yes. Visually and with regard to most other major elements? Not so different. Again, a more "friendly" theme gives the program more appeal. Cavies? Much in common from 2010 to 2011. Crown I think departs significantly thematically but again there was much in the brass, drum and guard features, to name just a few, that we can find in last year's and other previous shows. Phantoms's 2010 and 2011 shows were similar in approach; the difference was better material in 2010. SCV and Bluecoats? Similar. Boston and Madison? Similar. Blue Knights? Similar.

I am not saying in any way that 2011 doesn't represent an improvement. Why the improvement? I'm just not as certain as you are.

HH

Edited by glory

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I think there was a much bigger change between the shows of 2009 and 2011 than 2010 and 2011 but drum corps has always been follow the leader so I doubt much will change – in order to really change things, judging standards need to be opened up and different sorts of demand need to be rewarded more equally which, may have to be achieved through cleanliness of overall programs which doesn’t necessarily speak to fan friendliness

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Remind me to hire you as my "Spin Meister" :tongue:

I've tried to associate ALL of the corps with each of your trend accusations! Did I miss any? :rolleyes: Not exactly what I would call a trend. Remember, we're trying to capture the big difference between the previous year(s) trends and the miraculous, DCI-saving.... 2011! Was 2011 more successful and fan friendly? ...apparently but this was also a year of many nuances such as meetings of the top 8 peppered throughout the year, coupled with a mix of "who's on top?" all year long....a very competitve atmosphere. So the creativity/design stuff being trotted out here is kind of a ruse!

Actually, I recognize some of the items that you and others are trying to foist here concerning the success of 2011, and I do understand where you're coming from, but it just comes down to this: One dominant champion wins, and wins with big margins, performing shows that some fans had difficultly connecting with....and it fries people's corks! Then we wring our hands and speak of the death of drum corps and deminishing crowds. Oh, woe is us!

I'm not suggesting your points are wrong G, ....just focusing them honestly!

"Get some rest Pam....you look tired!

I've gone back and re-read your comments (beginning with my masterful use of emoticons!), Plan, and I'm beginning to be convinced that I may not be arguing the same point you are. I've also watched both the '10 shows and this year's, but I'm not sure that my "proof" will ever be sufficient to convince you. But, again, I'm not sure that's what you're arguing.

This posts sounds like your argument is that there is only one offender of "non-entertaining" shows, BD, and that torques some people's screws. Is it really your point that the whole "MC" endeavor was in response to the outcry about BD's show? Really? My contention is that the FTL phenomenon is alive and well (I agree with Glory [HH] that FTL has been in DCI for years). Yours seems to be that it's only BD who guilty of the litany of examples I listed earlier. That everyone follows them and it torques people off. Is that right? Would you have the same explanation if next year a half-dozen corps come out wearing angel wings?

I don't know if this is an 'or' or an 'and', but are you suggesting that the powers-that-be didn't like the direction the "leader" was taking the activity? And that's why they created the MC potentate position?

If, as you contend, it's only BD who's garnering all this criticism, and if you could agree that the powers-that-be could be the fans themselves, wouldn't you agree that that force must surely be a mighty one? Maybe a plurality, or even a majority, of fans?

And, if it is a "mighty force" of fans (and others, maybe) who disagree with the direction the leader (BD, in your mind) is taking the activity, isn't that how it's supposed to work?

And even if it could be any leader of the activity, and it now is only coincidental that it's BD, aren't you being a little defensive in your honkish-ness?

Isn't it entirely possible that the powers could be attacking any corps that was taking the activity in a direction it didn't want to go?

And, finally, my friend (and glory, too) do you really not see the distinction in corps design this year over last? Maybe we're looking at different things (this is a "perspective" activity, after all!), but I see clear differences in show design this year that were simply not there last year. The similarity of design last year was stark compared to this year, to my eyes. And yes, I suppose it's possible that I'm seeing what I'd hoped for.

But is this point really the one you're making, or is it strictly a BD issue for you as your post seems to imply? If so, I need to change my stance because we're addressing two different things.

See, I'm not always snarky! smile.gif

Edited by garfield

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...And, finally, my friend (and glory, too) do you really not see the distinction in corps design this year over last? ...

Oh I saw it. I'm just not as prepared as you to credit the change to any process begun by DCI.

HH

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I've tried to focus on this over the past day. I agree there are many common elements in many corps many of which are following the leader. I suppose, however, that's about as much common ground as you and I will find on this one. I can't concede that the commonality we agree we see is somehow unique to recent drum corps experience. Nor can I concede that 2011 represented a significant departure - or at least one that was centrally inspired by Cesario or someone else.

Take the Cadets. Granted their drum features the past couple of years were different. The 2010 edition was more in common with other drum features. The 2011 edition wasn't, in my view. Okay, one for the Cesario difference. But what else? Was the approach to the brass program different beyond the split teams? Guard? Or drill? I don't think so. I think many elements of the show were consistent in approach from previous years though admittedly the major thematic design made it seem fresher and better.

BD? More melodic. Yes. Visually and with regard to most other major elements? Not so different. Again, a more "friendly" theme gives the program more appeal. Cavies? Much in common from 2010 to 2011. Crown I think departs significantly thematically but again there was much in the brass, drum and guard features, to name just a few, that we can find in last year's and other previous shows. Phantoms's 2010 and 2011 shows were similar in approach; the difference was better material in 2010. SCV and Bluecoats? Similar. Boston and Madison? Similar. Blue Knights? Similar.

I am not saying in any way that 2011 doesn't represent an improvement. Why the improvement? I'm just not as certain as you are.

HH

H, now that I've expended my brain cells trying to understand Plan's point, I want to address yours. But I'm having trouble following your comparisons above. You seem to be comparing across years on a corps-by-corps basis, but I'm not sure. For example, on BD you say "More melodic". Are you talking about compared to last year's BD show, or in comparison with other shows this year it's more melodic?

My point is that show designs last year were much more similar than show designs this year, comparing corps in each year to the other corps that year. The similarity of design across shows of the same year was greater last year than this year.

I see a greater diversity of show design in 2011 than I saw in 2010.

(Although I agree that BD's show this year was more melodic than 2010, by about 4 measures tongue.gif)

Edited by garfield
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Oh I saw it. I'm just not as prepared as you to credit the change to any process begun by DCI.

HH

Well, there's a problem then, H (don't know why I called you "glory" twice doh.gif FIXED). Because neither you nor I were actually in the room when MC addressed the troops (except for the video shots on DCI earlier this year), how do we verify that there was a change a-foot before MC arrived on the scene?

I'm not an MC honk, bowing at his mere presence, but it seems much more than coincidental that, after his position is announced, we see such a recognizable change in design, the likes of which have not been seen for several (many?) years.

And, of course, the corps went along so they get credit, too. But I simply can't verify where show design would have been this year had MC's position never happened. Therefor I have to place the point on the most-obvious structural change evident. After all, MC did say (paraphrasing) that some of the corps pushed back on his design suggestions.

So if enough fans were screaming "Entertainment!", and DCI responded with MC, and it appears there was an increase in the diversity of shows looking for that "entertainment" magic, I'm not sure where else we can place the credit/blame/responsibility.

Edited by garfield

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