dugada Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I agree! But I would like to make a comment about BD since someone mentioned them; it seems the last several years it doesn't matter what the design team or instructional staff feed the marching members of BD -- those kids chew it up and peform the heck out of it! It took a geniously designed show from the Cadets 2011 to knock BD down a peg. There have been shifts in some design staff but your elite group (we all know who there are) are still intact. Cadets have already announced their 2012 show, does that put them ahead of the game? Irving Fan of the Arts I would say that BD's show grew to the very end of the season. I had them on top but that does not take away from Cadets as the shows had different strengths. The point is that the BD aproach allows both staff and members talents continually evolve through the season as 2011 clearly did. I think Cadets show selection for 2012 is fantastic! I also think BD will not settle on a final idea unti late in the spring once they fully know the talent of the members and staff. Two approaches, both successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 It's the sculptor, not the clay. Cadets used to get kids that couldn't blow their nose and repeatedly turned them into champions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) I would say that BD's show grew to the very end of the season. I had them on top but that does not take away from Cadets as the shows had different strengths. The point is that the BD aproach allows both staff and members talents continually evolve through the season as 2011 clearly did. I think Cadets show selection for 2012 is fantastic! I also think BD will not settle on a final idea unti late in the spring once they fully know the talent of the members and staff. Two approaches, both successful. I would agree that BD's 2011 show "grew" more so than any other of their productions of recent years. I would hazard a guess that was because they were ratcheting back (design wise) this past year, from 3 avante garde style shows.... and normal was a bit abnormal to them. The same way that John Coltrane would feel if he were to have play a wedding for cash. I also agree that BD's approach does permit their productions to evolve without termoil....they appear to know where they're going and how to get there on time! They know what fits and what doesn't and are not married to any of the parts. Take for example "God Give Me Strength" scheduled to be the closer this year.....it never happened, because (I believe) it didn't add anything to the "big" ending, And they were astute enough to keep it out. Less is More....sometimes. Cadets seem to be more amenable to radical surgery if it percieved as necessary. Take 09 for instance.....a mad dash of changes right until the end. Not a good situation for the performers. One could even see that George had some of the same stuff in mind in 09 as in 11..... conflict, opposing sides, resolution....same deal. But in 11 it was developed more completely and earlier. The opposing sides were easy to see (two different color uniforms...genius) and the moments of conflct were huge enough to see from the 2nd deck (ala PR08). In short, the Cadets designs seem a bit more undeveloped in vision than BD, and they are more willing to tweak much bigger pieces. Really, it's anyone's guess as to who prevails...but one thing is certain...it's about the show design, period! It works completely or it works in degrees. IMO all the other variables (talent, staff/techs, viz/perc/brass/guard books) are just language used to define the winner which is mentally decided somewhere along the way when the judges connect and it is obvious to them. Edited October 12, 2011 by Plan9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwscv87 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think it is splitting hairs to rank in order of importance, but I would agree with the idea that over the long haul nothing is more important than the senior leadership / executive director. If I had to pick between talent and staff, I choose staff. I would not distinguish between design and teaching. You've got to have both. Once you have the perfect storm of admin, staff, and talent in place you have the opportunity to achieve sustained success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) I think it is splitting hairs to rank in order of importance, but I would agree with the idea that over the long haul nothing is more important than the senior leadership / executive director. If I had to pick between talent and staff, I choose staff. I would not distinguish between design and teaching. You've got to have both. Once you have the perfect storm of admin, staff, and talent in place you have the opportunity to achieve sustained success. The planets align, the stars shine upon thee, and your mid to lower OC corps called XYZ somehow puts together the perfect dream-team staff. That year XYZ pulls in many talented kids because of that staff, and all eyes in DCI are upon thee as the corps shines bright in competition by finishing in the top three in OC at Finals. By September, the major WC corps are now throwing offers right and left at your staff. Question: How do you instill loyalty into those staff members and the kids who will follow them, and keep all of them from jumping your ship? Edited October 13, 2011 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) It's the sculptor, not the clay. Cadets used to get kids that couldn't blow their nose and repeatedly turned them into champions. Easy there friend, that's a pretty broad generalization. Sure, there have been kids with limited experience who learned their trade and made the grade under the expert guidance of the Cadets staff and organization. But don't make it seem like they've routinely taken busloads of nose-blowers and turned them into a crack outfit because their staff knows the secret of turning lead into (maroon and) gold. Ask any kid or staff member from a 10th - 18th place corps who struggled through the tour while watching three or five of their best field horses from the previous season rip it up every night as members of the championship-bound Cadets - or Cavies, or BD, or [name powerhouse multi-year champion of your choice]. Staff are important, no argument, and a good creative/instructional team can make all the difference. But rarely does anyone make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; you've got to have capable performers as well. Peace, Fred O. Edited October 13, 2011 by drumno5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Easy there friend, that's a pretty broad generalization. Sure, there have been kids with limited experience who learned their trade and made the grade under the expert guidance of the Cadets staff and organization. But don't make it seem like they've routinely taken busloads of nose-blowers and turned them into a crack outfit because their staff knows the secret of turning lead into (maroon and) gold. Ask any kid or staff member from a 10th - 18th place corps who struggled through the tour while watching three or five of their best field horses from the previous season rip it up every night as members of the championship-bound Cadets - or Cavies, or BD, or [name powerhouse multi-year champion of your choice]. Staff are important, no argument, and a good creative/instructional team can make all the difference. But rarely does anyone make a silk purse out of a sow's ear; you've got to have capable performers as well. Peace, Fred O. I don't know about now, but Cadets used to do this, routinely, like magic. It was impressive to see them going from getting their ### handed to them by, say, the Bandettes early season to winning in August. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumno5 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) I don't know about now, but Cadets used to do this, routinely, like magic. It was impressive to see them going from getting their ### handed to them by, say, the Bandettes early season to winning in August. What year(s)? Aside from 1980,when they imported a station wagon or two full of band kids from Alabama, or Mississippi, or wherever it was, and climbed out of the doldrums to make finals (they placed tenth that year, btw, a long way from winning), Cadets were pretty competitive through the rest of the decade. In '81 it was pretty clear right out of the gate that they were a lock for finals; in '82 they were competitive with the mid-tier finalists all summer before kicking it up a notch during final week and moving into the top 3; during the three-peat years '83 through '85 they pretty much won every show they entered. They were hardly getting their ### handed to them by the Okefenokee Swamp Rats at any point during any of those years. And I was out on those mid-80's tours working with some lower tier groups and got to know some of the Cadets' staff and members; though they may have had some green kids in their ranks, they were most definitely not working with "nose-blowers" in large numbers as you suggest. Doormat to DCI Champs, routinely, like magic... sorry, but the numbers just don't bear it out. I still think you've got a touch the rose-colored goggle syndrome. Peace - no personal disrespect intended, Fred O. Edited October 14, 2011 by drumno5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nngs9 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I don't know about now, but Cadets used to do this, routinely, like magic. It was impressive to see them going from getting their ### handed to them by, say, the Bandettes early season to winning in August. YIKES! Embellish much? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleveland1 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Is it the staff that decides a winning show or the kids that show up? I feel like some corps (not to pick on BD but they win a lot), it seems like the fact that they have some of the big names in corps make the show a winner. Like 2010, the show was crazy good and clean, though lacking in comprehension to the fans, but did the kids make it? No the staff wrote a show that was all challenging and wierd. Like people tell kids that their show made no sense. But is that always the kids fault? BD wins because they usually have one of the easiest books every season, and they draw talented players because of their name and success. You can have a challenging book, but if you don't have the players it will sound bad. (SCV 2010) You can have a poor show in general, but with great players they can do well (BD 2011) For amazing shows its always a combination of great design and musicianship, look at phantom 2008 Long story short, you don't have to be amazing in order to win every year. you just have to know how to play the game. Don't put something out there that is too challenging for the corps, if your end goal is to win at all costs. A good design team can make or break the year. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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