Diddles Explained

[Stu]

There is no anger involved in my position, and if my poor attempt at humor came across as insulting, I apologize. That was not my intent. I sometimes forget that web boards are so impersonal.

You are, however, misinterpreting my point as a disdain for adaptation. I love that there are those interested in other cultures. I am one of those who is very interested in cultures outside my own. My issue is with the oversimplification of those cultures and the idea that you can sum it all up in one drum set groove. This is not the case. To stick with the style we're using as an example, there are entire books written on just the adaptation of Brazilian Samba rhythms and instruments for drum set. But how many students are ever encouraged by their teachers to seek those books out when they learn to play Samba? They just hand them a couple of written out grooves and call it good. How many of those students are ever encouraged to actually go listen to some real Samba? I know I wasn't until I was lucky enough to have a teacher who was very into world music and gave me a bunch of recordings.

I've seen the Tommy Igoe "Groove Essentials" poster all over the place. Its posted in almost every school I've ever taught at. But the fact is, most of those grooves don't even scratch the surface of the style of music they claim to represent. Some of them, as a matter of fact simply aren't correct, or even don't exist at all. Yet this is what our young drum set players are learning.

So no, I'm not angry, but I do think its a mistake to teach kids that a groove on a piece of paper can represent an entire style of music (whether it be Samba, Hip Hop, Funk, Disco, or Country). I also think its a little silly to teach kids that 40 sticking patterns and their names are the key to playing drums well. It doesn't matter what name you put on a sticking. Either you can play it, or you can't. To put it into context for this web board, none of the judges were at any point quizzing the Cavaliers on the names of the rudiments they were playing. They simply recognized that they drum well and rewarded them as such. You can be a great drummer and never learn the name of a single rudiment. You can't be a great drummer if you never learn that the silly sounding names of sticking patterns you learned in middle school are actually fragments of music which are infinitely variable. This is what is happening to a lot of young students, and it is why I think we're making a mistake by putting so much emphasis on rudiments in early percussion education.

Interesting opinion you have here. What you are in essence saying is that Tommy Igoe, Chad Sexton, Steve Gadd, Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl, Steve Smith, Dennis Chambers, ad infinitum as well as great teachers like Dom Famularo were all taught wrong; they are therefore wrong on the way they approach their craft because of that wrong instruction; and that moreover they insult cultures by oversimplify world-rhythms, especially when introducing young students to the art of drumming. I, ummm, respectfully disagree.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Stu

[actucker]

Interesting opinion you have here. What you are in essence saying is that Tommy Igoe, Chad Sexton, Steve Gadd, Billy Cobham, Dave Weckl, Steve Smith, Dom Famularo, Dennis Chambers, Buddy Rich, ad infinitum were all taught wrong, they are therefore wrong on the way they approach their craft because of that wrong instruction, and that moreover they insult cultures by oversimplify world-rhythms to teach younger students. I, ummm, respectfully disagree.

What's really interesting is that you keep reading more into my opinion than is written simply to make an argument. If that's all you can come up with to argue with, then there's no point having the argument.

And for the record, the players you mentioned have all done the homework on the styles of music they play, and would encourage students to do the same. The fact that band directors have decided to only look at the very surface of their work because its easier than getting a student to really check out some music isn't their problem.

Edited November 7, 2011 by actucker

[Stu]

What's really interesting is that you keep reading more into my opinion than is written simply to make an argument. If that's all you can come up with to argue with, then there's no point having the argument.

Where am I misinterpreting your opinions? You stated that Tommy Igoe and his Groove Essentials was wrong; you stated that rudimental classifications and subsequent instruction was wrong; you stated that the oversimplification of cultural rhythms being taught to younger students was wrong; you stated that the youth are mainly receiving poor instruction. So again I ask, where am misinterpreting your opinions?

[actucker]

Where am I misinterpreting your opinions? You stated that Tommy Igoe and his Groove Essentials was wrong; you stated that rudimental classifications and subsequent instruction was wrong; you stated that the oversimplification of cultural rhythms being taught to younger students was wrong; you stated that the youth are mainly receiving poor instruction. So again I ask, where am misinterpreting your opinions?

You're generalizing. I said that simply relying on the free poster that comes with a much more extensive DVD is wrong. It is. That poster doesn't even begin to cover a lot of that, and even Igoe himself will say that if you really want to learn authentic rhythms, that his DVD is only a starting point. Most of the students I've dealt with have never even seen the DVD, much less heard any of the styles they are supposedly learning. They only know the completely watered down groove written down on the poster, and think that that is the way to play that groove. That is in fact, wrong.

I believe that if you are going to try to learn a style of music, you need more reference than a one bar groove written in a book. This would apply to any style of music. There is a lot about music that you can't learn out of a book, and this step often gets skipped entirely when dealing with world music. This is particularly important when you're dealing with cultures rooted outside of the typical realm of "scholastic band". Your'e dealing with cultures that most of these kids would never have been exposed to. Can you imagine trying to explain Led Zepplin to someone in one bar of music with no other reference? And we're only talking about one band in an entire culture of rock and roll music. Would that one bar really do justice to Zepplin?

And, I never said that learning rudiments, as a general practice was wrong. I said the way that they are being taught, as evidenced by a lot of the students that I've run into, is wrong. I specifically said that learning common sticking patterns as a way to learn vocabulary was in fact effective. But that the concern for knowing names for those stickings was a little overemphasized. I believe that it is. I know plenty of people who can read any piece of "rudimental" percussion you put in front of them, but they lose track of all of the names. I also mentioned that the list itself is a little redundant, with 9 separate rudiments that all are simply various forms of a double stroke roll. I mentioned that often times students are encouraged to learn all 40 of the PAS rudiments off of a sheet, but it somehow never learn to recognize those patterns and stickings in actual music. What good is it to be able to play a 15 stroke roll on command, if you can't read rhythms and play in time? For that matter, what good is it to be able to play an F major scale if you can't recognize that the same grouping of notes exists in a piece of music. These things are tools to help us play music. Not the other way around. However, having this opinion does not equate to me insinuating that all percussion education all over the world is wrong.

Nowhere did I say that "youth are mainly receiving poor instruction". I think there are aspects of percussion education that are being overlooked in the middle school programs. I'm not the only one who thinks that. That doesn't mean that I think that the entire system is broken. A car can run with an oil leak. That doesn't mean that the car is running as well as it could.

Again, don't blow a simple opinion out of proportion. I think there are things we can do better with our young percussionists. One of those things is to place less emphasis on knowing names for sticking patterns, and more emphasis on how sticking patterns occur in music. This is not to suggest abandonment of learning common stickings, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. It is simply to suggest that there are more important things to focus on than whether or not little Johnny knows the difference between a 15 stroke and a 17 stroke roll.

[Stu]

You're generalizing. I said that simply relying on the free poster that comes with a much more extensive DVD is wrong. It is. That poster doesn't even begin to cover a lot of that, and even Igoe himself will say that if you really want to learn authentic rhythms, that his DVD is only a starting point. Most of the students I've dealt with have never even seen the DVD, much less heard any of the styles they are supposedly learning. They only know the completely watered down groove written down on the poster, and think that that is the way to play that groove. That is in fact, wrong.

I believe that if you are going to try to learn a style of music, you need more reference than a one bar groove written in a book. This would apply to any style of music. There is a lot about music that you can't learn out of a book, and this step often gets skipped entirely when dealing with world music. This is particularly important when you're dealing with cultures rooted outside of the typical realm of "scholastic band". Your'e dealing with cultures that most of these kids would never have been exposed to. Can you imagine trying to explain Led Zepplin to someone in one bar of music with no other reference? And we're only talking about one band in an entire culture of rock and roll music. Would that one bar really do justice to Zepplin?

And, I never said that learning rudiments, as a general practice was wrong. I said the way that they are being taught, as evidenced by a lot of the students that I've run into, is wrong. I specifically said that learning common sticking patterns as a way to learn vocabulary was in fact effective. But that the concern for knowing names for those stickings was a little overemphasized. I believe that it is. I know plenty of people who can read any piece of "rudimental" percussion you put in front of them, but they lose track of all of the names. I also mentioned that the list itself is a little redundant, with 9 separate rudiments that all are simply various forms of a double stroke roll. I mentioned that often times students are encouraged to learn all 40 of the PAS rudiments off of a sheet, but it somehow never learn to recognize those patterns and stickings in actual music. What good is it to be able to play a 15 stroke roll on command, if you can't read rhythms and play in time? For that matter, what good is it to be able to play an F major scale if you can't recognize that the same grouping of notes exists in a piece of music. These things are tools to help us play music. Not the other way around. However, having this opinion does not equate to me insinuating that all percussion education all over the world is wrong.

Nowhere did I say that "youth are mainly receiving poor instruction". I think there are aspects of percussion education that are being overlooked in the middle school programs. I'm not the only one who thinks that. That doesn't mean that I think that the entire system is broken. A car can run with an oil leak. That doesn't mean that the car is running as well as it could.

Again, don't blow a simple opinion out of proportion. I think there are things we can do better with our young percussionists. One of those things is to place less emphasis on knowing names for sticking patterns, and more emphasis on how sticking patterns occur in music. This is not to suggest abandonment of learning common stickings, as I've said repeatedly in this thread. It is simply to suggest that there are more important things to focus on than whether or not little Johnny knows the difference between a 15 stroke and a 17 stroke roll.

Where I think the differences exist between us are within the realm of youth instruction. None of what you are describing is within my own personal experience as both a student and instructor. My private training, my scholastic training, my drum corps experience, my drum set experience, my students, my mentors, my peers, my peers students, are all the complete antithesis of what you describe in your own instructional experiences. I am not aware of any of my mentors teaching in the manner you speak; I am not aware of any of my peers teaching in the manner you speak; I am not aware of any percussion students being taught in the manner you speak (unless, of course, you are referring to band directors who know very little about percussion but have to teach it in their own program without help from a percussion specialist).

Edited November 7, 2011 by Stu

[actucker]

Where I think the differences exist between us are within the realm of youth instruction. None of what you are describing is within my own personal experience as both a student and instructor. My private training, my scholastic training, my drum corps experience, my drum set experience, my students, my mentors, my peers, my peers students, are all the complete antithesis of what you describe in your own instructional experiences. I am not aware of any of my mentors teaching in the manner you speak; I am not aware of any of my peers teaching in the manner you speak; I am not aware of any percussion students being taught in the manner you speak (unless, of course, you are referring to band directors who know very little about percussion but have to teach it in their own program without help from a percussion specialist).

In that case, I'd love to teach wherever you're teaching. I can't tell you how many kids come up to my program knowing all 40 PAS rudiments, but having no idea how to play a consistent double stroke roll, or how to play with any kind of dynamic contrast. The audition process for the all county program is ridiculous. One of the few middle school students I have in my private studio is actually being told wrong information by people who will be auditioning him (for example that there is no motion involved in the second stroke of a double stroke roll).

Again, I'm sorry if you think I'm being harsh or insulting. My sense of humor is a dry one, and that doesn't come across well online sometimes. I can only speak from the experiences I've had in my own teaching, and they are often frustrating in regards to younger students. Percussion is a tricky beast to teach as it is often completely unrelated to anything that a typical band director knows about. A semester of methods classes in college can hardly teach them anything beyond a 6th grad level. And in this day and age of budget cuts to the arts, a dedicated percussion instructor for each school is hardly realistic. With those obstacles in mind, I think we can do more to emphasize the priorities when educating the educators. That's all I'm trying to say.

Thanks for the conversation.