Jeff Ream Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Not following.. your plan will cause corps to fold, which will cause fans to trickle away. fewer corps means fewer "local" shows, which means fewer fans have the opportunity to see drum corps live. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 your plan will cause corps to fold, which will cause fans to trickle away. fewer corps means fewer "local" shows, which means fewer fans have the opportunity to see drum corps live. How exactly will it cause corps to fold? As I see it, it would strengthen the operations and improve sustainability. I'm not a fan of world class corps doing loads of local shows. Doesn't make financial sense. Shows need to be where the greatest potential for revenue is, not simply covering the country equally. There are places that have several large shows and could support even more with a different lineup. Something to think about... if all of the current open class corps went away, and there were only say 15 world class corps performing on the highest level.... the activity will still thrive. There will be no less fans (fans are attracted these days though their school programs, not through participation in corps), no less stability. But... if these top corps went under and it was only corps performing on the level of open class corps or the bottom tier of world class... the activity is done. Priority needs to be placed on the top performing corps, as this is what keeps the activity going. Secondary emphasis should be to get corps in world class performing on a more equal level. Again, bar should be higher on all levels. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 haven't read the whole thread, but here's my vote fwiw no... IMO, DCI, like colleges and universities, is a great example of a successful self-governed organization. Drum corps is a very unique, hybrid activity involving highlyk specialized expertise. Corps directors and others who have devoted their professional lives to the activity have the greatest expertise in the activity and are in the best position to govern it. What on earth is the fascination with business people? How does working in business qualify you to govern anything? For cripes sake in this economy, there are serious doubts about whether experience in business bodes well for your future potential in business let alone in some activity you know nothing about. The business of drum corps is not unique. The fundamentals are the same as nearly any business. DCI is a business, one that has grown to something that is generating about $10M a year and is operating at about 1/2 revenue potential. How much different would the activity be if there was another $10M a year injected into it? It is not possible to achieve this under the current structure. This past couple of years have demonstrated how much to the limit the current structure has been pushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 How exactly will it cause corps to fold? As I see it, it would strengthen the operations and improve sustainability. I'm not a fan of world class corps doing loads of local shows. Doesn't make financial sense. Shows need to be where the greatest potential for revenue is, not simply covering the country equally. There are places that have several large shows and could support even more with a different lineup. I really disagree with this structure and I very much disagree with your contention financially. A good friend of mine from HS (a trombone player) has a nephew who marches the pit in Blue Stars. He lives an hour from here. BS has been in our show in the last two years and will be again this year. All three years he's brought his family over to watch the kid play. Funny thing is, he's very anti-drum corps because of style; "They don't even march anymore" is his comment. Still, he appreciates the marching arts because we loved band. Now, I guarantee you he would NOT take his family to the nearest metro area (Akron is about 3 hours from him) that has a TOC or regional show. Without him, the activity will have lost about $200 in ticket money each year. His daughter is now talking about marching, and he would never have introduced it to her until he brought her to see her cousin play in BS pit. May be a singular example, but I don't think so, and the point is the same. With more kids marching we appeal to more people for ticket money, and appeal to more potential marching members. Both simply because of show location. I'll address the financial aspect after I take the kids to get a movie to watch on a rainy cold, Ohio afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) Some assumed data, some real data, and some pro-forma projections to go along with the flat out assumptions: The 2009 DCI 990 shows that program revenue was $7.5million. For discussion lets assume that number is currently accurate. Working backwards and making some assumptions (and because DCI doesn't release these actual stats) (my assumptions are open to discussion/modification): DCI holds over 100 shows per year, but let's call it 100 for easy math...an assumed 3500 average attendance and an average $22.00 ticket price gets you a little over $7.5mm dollars. Our show, one of the 100, is between Atlanta and Allentown in 2012. All eight of our corps are coming from and heading to those locations. For the top corps (BD, BS, etc) we pay DCI $5500. I don't know how much of that goes to the corps. Most of our corps are staying just one night and then heading to Allentown. Most will do one other show along the way. One of our corps is staying two days, and maybe three, at our show so they can head directly to A-town. It's presumed that most corps will collect two additional paydays between Atlanta and A-town. earning them something between $4400 and $10,000 between those two shows. In Dan Ray's vision, only Major regions would hold a show. I'm not even certain that A-town would keep their show in this scheme, consider that, as I understand it, our show had better one-night attendance than A-town did last year, but let's assume that A-town stays in the Super Circuit. It's reasonable that our show would not be on the schedule unless we can negotiate with The Ohio State University to provide a venue (they have several that would probably hold "regional" attendance), but let's assume that our show, and one other between Atlanta and A-town are eliminated. That would make A-town responsible for producing twice or more revenue per corps. Still with me? Here's the rub. Back to some assumed math: Let's assume the Super Circuit has 25 shows around the country instead of 100. Also let's assume that average ticket cost nearly doubles to $40. It will take 7000 fans at A-town, and at each of the other 24 shows to generate the same $7.5mm that 100 shows does now. Is that reasonable (remember my friend and his nephew). I can guarantee that band kids from central Ohio are not going to go to A-town, so the next-closest show would be Akron (2 1/2 hours away) or Tennessee (6 hours away). It's very difficult for us to get band directors to bring their kids to our local show; is it reasonable to think those directors will take their kids 3 hours away and pay twice as much? I don't think so. What the likelihood that parents will drive to see their kids perform? At least, you can say the odds are lower than if there's a show in their own home town. What about fans? Well I'm as rabid as the next guy, but I'd be hard-pressed to make the Akron show, let alone A-town, TN, or Atlanta. Are drum corps fans really Dead-Head types that follow corps around for the whole season sleeping in bus stations or paying for hotels? Doubtful. Attendance will be local and, at best, regional. Less shows means less attendance. Less attendance means less marketing, less souvie sales, etc. DCI is now handling a 100-show circuit (which is why they have the expertise to sell - YEA! runs a 200-show season!). So, fill in the blanks, Dan. I agree with much of what you say, but this notion that corps should be chopped off and the circuit shrunk to generate more revenue just doesn't make sense to me. A reasonable assumption is that corporate "sponsorship" or involvement will make ticket revenue less important. But that ticket revenue represents the cash flow to an investor. That cash flow is an important part of discounting future values to get present value that determines whether the investment has viability. I just don't see how marketing a less-frequent cash flow, at larger ticket prices, makes a more viable argument for investment than does a 100 corps season. And FINALLY... If a deal can be struck to big-league market 15 corps, why can't that same model be leveraged up to market all DCI corps (and DCA partner corps as well)? If "sponsorship", or "investment", or "involvement" by corporations works for 15 corps, what makes it un-adaptable for 42 corps and the leverage attained spread among all 42 instead of just the top 15? (Whew. Sorry so long and full of questions. I've been thinking about this for several hours.) Edited December 5, 2011 by garfield 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) The business of drum corps is not unique. The fundamentals are the same as nearly any business. DCI is a business, one that has grown to something that is generating about $10M a year and is operating at about 1/2 revenue potential. How much different would the activity be if there was another $10M a year injected into it? It is not possible to achieve this under the current structure. This past couple of years have demonstrated how much to the limit the current structure has been pushed. Agree with this, so long as the extra $10mm comes from unrelated business activity and not reducing the circuit shows or limiting payout to only 35% of the now-active corps. I understand that attendance was up last year. Yet, there were the same number of shows. Edited December 4, 2011 by garfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 So what the heck do I get a red negative for? No response, just a red negative? Who am I, Mike Boo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 your plan will cause corps to fold, which will cause fans to trickle away. fewer corps means fewer "local" shows, which means fewer fans have the opportunity to see drum corps live. Which, if I'm following your argument correctly, means fewer people to take an interest in drum corps, which means fewer money spent on videos, fewer tickets sold to Championships and other Regional events (since fewer fans are seeing corps at local shows and gaining interest in the activity), etc. I don't think your stipulation is out of line, and is fairly probable. While everyone wants to go see the Yankees and Red Sox, people also don't mind cheering for the lowly local teams, such as Padres and Pirates. Plus, when the Yankees play the Pirates, people come out to see the 'good team.' When Cadets go to, say, Pioneer's home show, more people come out to see the bigger corps which helps Pioneer's revenue for the show. I don't have any problems overhauling classification, to possible match what WGI does a little better (if said reclassification doesn't affect corps' payouts of course). But cutting back corps is a kind of goofy idea, as IMO there are barely enough corps now to sustain the summer tour (you could argue there aren't enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 How exactly will it cause corps to fold? As I see it, it would strengthen the operations and improve sustainability. I'm not a fan of world class corps doing loads of local shows. Doesn't make financial sense. Shows need to be where the greatest potential for revenue is, not simply covering the country equally. There are places that have several large shows and could support even more with a different lineup. Something to think about... if all of the current open class corps went away, and there were only say 15 world class corps performing on the highest level.... the activity will still thrive. There will be no less fans (fans are attracted these days though their school programs, not through participation in corps), no less stability. But... if these top corps went under and it was only corps performing on the level of open class corps or the bottom tier of world class... the activity is done. Priority needs to be placed on the top performing corps, as this is what keeps the activity going. Secondary emphasis should be to get corps in world class performing on a more equal level. Again, bar should be higher on all levels. your plan basically mirrors the G7 plan. the big names get everything, the little guys get next to nothing. You've said so yourself. And sorry, losing the OC corps would hurt the activity...because many kids get training in those corps that helps them be prepared when they go to a WC corps. Since you're all about "quality", losing those corps will hurt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Which, if I'm following your argument correctly, means fewer people to take an interest in drum corps, which means fewer money spent on videos, fewer tickets sold to Championships and other Regional events (since fewer fans are seeing corps at local shows and gaining interest in the activity), etc. I don't think your stipulation is out of line, and is fairly probable. While everyone wants to go see the Yankees and Red Sox, people also don't mind cheering for the lowly local teams, such as Padres and Pirates. Plus, when the Yankees play the Pirates, people come out to see the 'good team.' When Cadets go to, say, Pioneer's home show, more people come out to see the bigger corps which helps Pioneer's revenue for the show. I don't have any problems overhauling classification, to possible match what WGI does a little better (if said reclassification doesn't affect corps' payouts of course). But cutting back corps is a kind of goofy idea, as IMO there are barely enough corps now to sustain the summer tour (you could argue there aren't enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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