GUARDLING Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 George Zingali was a genius and an innovator and he did push the boundaries of drum corps. I agree that if he were still with us, he would not be doing the same things today as he did in the past. Just look at how different his work with the Cadets was from what he did with 27th, or how different his work with Star was as compared to Cadets. I am not anti-modern drum corps. The talent of many corps is phenomenal. I would just like to see some corps have color guards that are color guards and not dance teams that happen to pick up a flag or rifle from time to time. Musically Madison goes retro every now and then and audiences love it. Phantom resurrected “Elsa’s Procession” last year and for many it was what and made the show. I’d be willing to bet a retro style color guard could also work and they’d still be competitive. there have been some elements of retro guard at times BUT it could never be successful because of a few reasons..One is that it would never please an audiance like it did mainly because although tricks may be cool there way to much that the 2012 person has been exposed to and also the sheets and what is expected of a guard goes far beyond just equipment work. Even equipment work doesnt stand alone anymore. Levels of expression, body under equipment, multi layering, expression and many more elements come into play. So unless all of that reverts back it would have very little chance of any of success. Yes it would be nice to go back that memory lane BUT at the cost to run a drum corps and the cost kids pay going back could be dangerous.I think the closest to a retro guard by design we have seen would be PR last year. I saw so many up dated elements and the guard really reminded me of SCV PH of the Opera years in movenent especially. Yes it was successful last year but thats the closest we will get to what you say....Oh well theres always old videos..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearlsnaredrummer77 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I appreciate that you love drum corps brass/ drums etc etc..but that alone dosnt define the activity at all. Some would like to belive it but it doesnt.IMO And noone said all people who like brass the way it was is stuck in time although you have indicated in your posts that you may be ..which is fine but doesnt mean the activity needs to be...JMO.....You also seem to leave out in your response even the DCA and Alumni people..maybe not all but enough are tired of the old also.You mentioned that chage and evolving is ok but with the brass and percussion paradigm..well let me ask you...and?...we arent the keepers of the holy grail and dont get to decide how it will go on. We dont have to like a change BUT its theirs to decide how it will evolve..Why would we get a vote in it. You were the one who said that you want DCI to leave DCA alone..leave things as they are...Kinda indicates you dont want the activity to move forward and as i said thats cool..just dont expect it. Again..we are all entitled to our likes and dislikes and opinions and should be respected for them BUT as i said thats all they are and we can like or dislike the activity at this point. For me and I dont speak for anyone I love the direction and the fact that there much more interesting things to listen to as well as see......again.....JMO peace I think you neatly summed-up "we just aren't going to agree on this..." And I agree on that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think you neatly summed-up "we just aren't going to agree on this..." And I agree on that.... agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I understand what you are saying, especially regarding the judging system. What audiences enjoy and what judges are looking for are often two different things, and I also understand that we are talking about a competitive activity and not a musical variety show. Corps have to create and perform shows that please the judges. I am also not sure that this thread is the best place for my most recent additions to the discussion since we are supposed to be “defining the problem” and dance in color guard is not even part of the problem anymore than traditional guards will be the solution. One thing you do mention what it would cost of a corps to be more traditional and the cost of a young person to participate. This is a problem that has nothing to do with dancing color guards. I’m assuming you are referring to prize money for the cost to a corps and how a low score would not generate the funds and a low placement would not be worth the investment for participants. While some could be critical of people who only want to march with the best, we don’t begrudge Olympic athletes for wanting to be the best, and for Drum Corps DCI is Olympic level. Also, even back in the day, including the 50’s and 60’s, the best often joined elite corps. The advent of DCI may have made it more common, but I was involved in local circuit marching in the 1970’s and only a few from each drum corps, drill team, or band joined the elite corps. The best corps did not kill all of the smaller corps. Finances did, along with more activities for young people. These corps also folded during an economic downturn, not unlike today. To get back on track a bit, is it becoming so expensive to field a competitive drum corps that we run the risk of losing the few remaining corps we have in these economic times? Should there be spending limits and would spending limits be fair, especially for the Troopers and West Coast corps that have farther to travel? Just asking as someone who does not have the solution. there have been some elements of retro guard at times BUT it could never be successful because of a few reasons..One is that it would never please an audiance like it did mainly because although tricks may be cool there way to much that the 2012 person has been exposed to and also the sheets and what is expected of a guard goes far beyond just equipment work. Even equipment work doesnt stand alone anymore. Levels of expression, body under equipment, multi layering, expression and many more elements come into play. So unless all of that reverts back it would have very little chance of any of success. Yes it would be nice to go back that memory lane BUT at the cost to run a drum corps and the cost kids pay going back could be dangerous.I think the closest to a retro guard by design we have seen would be PR last year. I saw so many up dated elements and the guard really reminded me of SCV PH of the Opera years in movenent especially. Yes it was successful last year but thats the closest we will get to what you say....Oh well theres always old videos..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I understand what you are saying, especially regarding the judging system. What audiences enjoy and what judges are looking for are often two different things, and I also understand that we are talking about a competitive activity and not a musical variety show. Corps have to create and perform shows that please the judges. I am also not sure that this thread is the best place for my most recent additions to the discussion since we are supposed to be “defining the problem” and dance in color guard is not even part of the problem anymore than traditional guards will be the solution. One thing you do mention what it would cost of a corps to be more traditional and the cost of a young person to participate. This is a problem that has nothing to do with dancing color guards. I’m assuming you are referring to prize money for the cost to a corps and how a low score would not generate the funds and a low placement would not be worth the investment for participants. While some could be critical of people who only want to march with the best, we don’t begrudge Olympic athletes for wanting to be the best, and for Drum Corps DCI is Olympic level. Also, even back in the day, including the 50’s and 60’s, the best often joined elite corps. The advent of DCI may have made it more common, but I was involved in local circuit marching in the 1970’s and only a few from each drum corps, drill team, or band joined the elite corps. The best corps did not kill all of the smaller corps. Finances did, along with more activities for young people. These corps also folded during an economic downturn, not unlike today. To get back on track a bit, is it becoming so expensive to field a competitive drum corps that we run the risk of losing the few remaining corps we have in these economic times? Should there be spending limits and would spending limits be fair, especially for the Troopers and West Coast corps that have farther to travel? Just asking as someone who does not have the solution. I totally agree with you as the the economic turn and how young people had more choices than maybe we did back in the day..You are right on with that although many want to blame the colapse of the local corps on other things. As far as a spending limit for certain corps.Im not sure about that. I still belive its or should be a free country and why be held back because I as a drum corps have figured out how to financially overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Musically the two “Elsa” arrangements are remarkably similar. I'm sure adjustments had to be made due to key changes since 1979 (Key of G then, B-flat now). The drill in 2011 was different, but that’s to be expected. Madison may the better example. They’ve done “Slaughter” and “Malaguena” more than once, no two arrangements are identical. They take a standard and make it new. That’s what I’m suggesting for color guards. I’m not saying to take an old routine and duplicate it. That wouldn’t work. Take the tradition and bring it to life in 2012 with rifles and flags. Keep dancing and props to a minimum. How can it earn high scores? First, it has to be well done. That’s the job of instructors. Second, it has to be done on an innovative way. That’s the job of the design team. A well-done 'retro' guard show would just not present enough of a show to generate a high score. Look at a 1980 show and compare it to a 1950 show. Guards of today are just so far beyond guards of 30 years ago in show demand and overall performance skills involving the whole body that they would look like they are doing next to nothing to enhance the show. Guards 'back then' prided themselves on being military and motionless...and emotionless visually. How would that EVER work in terms of 2012? Those days were wonderful...back then. Today's shows are wonderful...for today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 You make good points and the argument could go either way. The NFL is pretty American and they have a salary cap. Of course Major League Baseball is American too, but there are no salary caps. If you take this argument to the next level, DCI claims to be marching music’s major league, so maybe there shouldn’t be limits. I totally agree with you as the the economic turn and how young people had more choices than maybe we did back in the day..You are right on with that although many want to blame the colapse of the local corps on other things. As far as a spending limit for certain corps.Im not sure about that. I still belive its or should be a free country and why be held back because I as a drum corps have figured out how to financially overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim K Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 When I use the term retro, I’m thinking of the late 70’s/early 80’s, a group I would not classify as emotionless or militaristic, at least not the guards that I enjoyed most: 27th, Phantom, Madison, Cavies, North Star, Boston Crusaders, and Garfield. Forty years back maybe, but thirty years ago the Bridgemen were putting on great shows no one had seen before, musical arrangements were more sophisticated, and guards were doing all kinds of great things. I understand that judging has changed and what’s expected has changed, and when you attend shows as a fan and you’re not as intimately involved with the activity as “back then,” it’s easy to be nostalgic even if it’s unrealistic. I also said in an earlier post that I do not think dance in drum corps is the problem any more than I think traditional guards are the solution. Financing a corps is a far more serious problem. However, if we are looking at “saving” drum corps, balancing the tradition that makes drum corps unique while being innovative and future oriented are both essential. A well-done 'retro' guard show would just not present enough of a show to generate a high score. Look at a 1980 show and compare it to a 1950 show. Guards of today are just so far beyond guards of 30 years ago in show demand and overall performance skills involving the whole body that they would look like they are doing next to nothing to enhance the show. Guards 'back then' prided themselves on being military and motionless...and emotionless visually. How would that EVER work in terms of 2012? Those days were wonderful...back then. Today's shows are wonderful...for today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 When I use the term retro, I’m thinking of the late 70’s/early 80’s, a group I would not classify as emotionless or militaristic, at least not the guards that I enjoyed most: 27th, Phantom, Madison, Cavies, North Star, Boston Crusaders, and Garfield. Forty years back maybe, but thirty years ago the Bridgemen were putting on great shows no one had seen before, musical arrangements were more sophisticated, and guards were doing all kinds of great things. Which goes to show us just how varied our ideas on lots of topics are here, based on each of our past experiences. Certainly I loved every era I have experienced in corps, from 1964-2011, but for me...I love to see what is coming to make it even better. If I want to see/hear retro...I'll watch alumni corps at a DCA show. I understand that judging has changed and what’s expected has changed, and when you attend shows as a fan and you’re not as intimately involved with the activity as “back then,” it’s easy to be nostalgic even if it’s unrealistic. I also said in an earlier post that I do not think dance in drum corps is the problem any more than I think traditional guards are the solution. Financing a corps is a far more serious problem. However, if we are looking at “saving” drum corps, balancing the tradition that makes drum corps unique while being innovative and future oriented are both essential. Financing is indeed the #1 item corps have to focus on..their survival depends on it. One of the things that has made drum corps interesting to me...and is part of the tradition...is the forward thinking and constant changes to make shows more interesting as each decade progresses. Stagnation in shows and instruments has not been part of the tradition, I am glad to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHall Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It's too bad the internet wasn't around in the 70's when all these opinions maybe would have helped the activity. Now, I wonder, is it worth the arguing? What has happened has happened and we can't change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.