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SCV moves to Dynasty


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THIS.

Can we finally put this 'brand X sounds like crap' nonsense to bed already? It's such obvious nonsense. Thank you for the perfect argument above. I also like how naysayers never mention differences in head choice, muffling, implements, etc. Like the poster above, who thinks the 2008 Dynasty lines of PR, BD and Glassmen all sounded the same?

Once a manufacturer reaches a certain level of design and build quality, which ALL all the brands cited in this thread do, it all comes down to 'can you tune the ###### thing well' and 'can you play the ###### thing well'.

Sorry: perhaps you're unaware of acoustical physics and the different design/materials of one company's products to the next but there are difference in characteristic of sound in all of the drum line manufacturers (which says nothing of quality control of manufacturing). Yes, a great teacher working with a high achieving musician/ensemble will get a good, consistent quality of sound where the characteristic tone of an instrument is negligible/arguable. Phantom Regiment's drum line played phenomenal on Pearl and Dynasty under Rennick's tenure; and using qualifiers like "sounds like crap" is obviously a poor choice of argumentative words. But if you can't hear the difference between the characteristic of Phantom Regiment's drum line sound/tone/articulation/resonance from the 2007 Pearl line and the 2008 Dynasty line (and I'm talking live difference in sound: it would be much more difficult, though not impossible, on the CD's/DVD's to tell) then I'm sorry but you are either incapable of ascertaining the difference or are naive in your bias to not let yourself hear the difference. I saw that drum line from literally 10 feet max in both 07 and 08, and the sound was wildly different (and, it seemed to me the approach was fairly different: it looked to me that the 08 line was being more aggressive and hitting harder to get a similar amount of projection).

As others have mentioned, Dynasty drums just don't project the way other drums do (like Pearl or Yamaha). A lot of that has to do with the construction/design of the drums. For example, with the Dynasty snare the nodal point of the lug casings, particularly the upper ones, are attached to the shell via one screw. When a few of those screws loosen over time (and since sound = vibrations the screws loosen constantly when being played), the pitch of the instrument drops rapidly. Being a percussionist, and a FMM snare drummer, these are things I'm REALLY picky about and I have experience dealing with Dynasty instruments (also with Pearl and Yamaha): my opinions are formed over many years (decades) experience dealing with the instruments and I'm pretty aware of each line's characteristic sound. Trust me when I tell you that there is a very distinct difference between one manufacturer to another: I have taught clinics/audition camps where members are playing multiple manufacturer's instruments in one line, and I've tuned a snare line with literally a kid playing Yamaha, a different kind on Pearl, and another on Dynasty all in a row and all three snares had a very distinct characteristic sound that was fairly easy to tell apart. I'm pretty confident that one of the reasons Dynasty is such a popular choice with WGI lines is because the characteristic sound is a little bit 'greyer,' with less projection, and thus forces a judge to question whether a playing clarity is grey due to playing issues or instrument issues thus giving the line a very (very) slight advantage.

Yes, different combinations of heads, tuning, implement selection, and technique will be a greater sound differential cause than different manufacturers: but all things being ballpark (and even equal), there is still a noticeable characteristic sound difference, and if one can't tell the difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Sorry: perhaps you're unaware of acoustical physics and the different design/materials of one company's products to the next but there are difference in characteristic of sound in all of the drum line manufacturers (which says nothing of quality control of manufacturing). Yes, a great teacher working with a high achieving musician/ensemble will get a good, consistent quality of sound where the characteristic tone of an instrument is negligible/arguable. Phantom Regiment's drum line played phenomenal on Pearl and Dynasty under Rennick's tenure; and using qualifiers like "sounds like crap" is obviously a poor choice of argumentative words. But if you can't hear the difference between the characteristic of Phantom Regiment's drum line sound/tone/articulation/resonance from the 2007 Pearl line and the 2008 Dynasty line (and I'm talking live difference in sound: it would be much more difficult, though not impossible, on the CD's/DVD's to tell) then I'm sorry but you are either incapable of ascertaining the difference or are naive in your bias to not let yourself hear the difference. I saw that drum line from literally 10 feet max in both 07 and 08, and the sound was wildly different (and, it seemed to me the approach was fairly different: it looked to me that the 08 line was being more aggressive and hitting harder to get a similar amount of projection).

As others have mentioned, Dynasty drums just don't project the way other drums do (like Pearl or Yamaha). A lot of that has to do with the construction/design of the drums. For example, with the Dynasty snare the nodal point of the lug casings, particularly the upper ones, are attached to the shell via one screw. When a few of those screws loosen over time (and since sound = vibrations the screws loosen constantly when being played), the pitch of the instrument drops rapidly. Being a percussionist, and a FMM snare drummer, these are things I'm REALLY picky about and I have experience dealing with Dynasty instruments (also with Pearl and Yamaha): my opinions are formed over many years (decades) experience dealing with the instruments and I'm pretty aware of each line's characteristic sound. Trust me when I tell you that there is a very distinct difference between one manufacturer to another: I have taught clinics/audition camps where members are playing multiple manufacturer's instruments in one line, and I've tuned a snare line with literally a kid playing Yamaha, a different kind on Pearl, and another on Dynasty all in a row and all three snares had a very distinct characteristic sound that was fairly easy to tell apart. I'm pretty confident that one of the reasons Dynasty is such a popular choice with WGI lines is because the characteristic sound is a little bit 'greyer,' with less projection, and thus forces a judge to question whether a playing clarity is grey due to playing issues or instrument issues thus giving the line a very (very) slight advantage.

Yes, different combinations of heads, tuning, implement selection, and technique will be a greater sound differential cause than different manufacturers: but all things being ballpark (and even equal), there is still a noticeable characteristic sound difference, and if one can't tell the difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Just wanted to say ythat I agree with most of this. Nice post!

And I did notice the sound difference from 07 to 08 which i think I mentioned in the post hughesmr was replying to. And I'm sure from a performing and teaching standpoint all the manufacturers have the pros and cons. But Like you said the manufacture does make a difference. But other factors weigh more heavily on the sound.

Again parallel to the hornlines: Phantom's sound also changed with the switch to Jupiter in 09. But you could still tell it was a JD Shaw hornline, and a Phantom Regiment hornline. (BUT THE KING EUPHS MADE THEM SO DARK!!! THEY EVEN DARKENED UP BD'S SOUND A LITTLE!!! OH NO!) and you could tell it was JD Shaw's writing. And I could still tell it was Paul Rennick's writing from 07 to 08.

Edited by kickhaltsforlife
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Sorry: perhaps you're unaware of acoustical physics and the different design/materials of one company's products to the next but there are difference in characteristic of sound in all of the drum line manufacturers (which says nothing of quality control of manufacturing). Yes, a great teacher working with a high achieving musician/ensemble will get a good, consistent quality of sound where the characteristic tone of an instrument is negligible/arguable. Phantom Regiment's drum line played phenomenal on Pearl and Dynasty under Rennick's tenure; and using qualifiers like "sounds like crap" is obviously a poor choice of argumentative words. But if you can't hear the difference between the characteristic of Phantom Regiment's drum line sound/tone/articulation/resonance from the 2007 Pearl line and the 2008 Dynasty line (and I'm talking live difference in sound: it would be much more difficult, though not impossible, on the CD's/DVD's to tell) then I'm sorry but you are either incapable of ascertaining the difference or are naive in your bias to not let yourself hear the difference. I saw that drum line from literally 10 feet max in both 07 and 08, and the sound was wildly different (and, it seemed to me the approach was fairly different: it looked to me that the 08 line was being more aggressive and hitting harder to get a similar amount of projection).

As others have mentioned, Dynasty drums just don't project the way other drums do (like Pearl or Yamaha). A lot of that has to do with the construction/design of the drums. For example, with the Dynasty snare the nodal point of the lug casings, particularly the upper ones, are attached to the shell via one screw. When a few of those screws loosen over time (and since sound = vibrations the screws loosen constantly when being played), the pitch of the instrument drops rapidly. Being a percussionist, and a FMM snare drummer, these are things I'm REALLY picky about and I have experience dealing with Dynasty instruments (also with Pearl and Yamaha): my opinions are formed over many years (decades) experience dealing with the instruments and I'm pretty aware of each line's characteristic sound. Trust me when I tell you that there is a very distinct difference between one manufacturer to another: I have taught clinics/audition camps where members are playing multiple manufacturer's instruments in one line, and I've tuned a snare line with literally a kid playing Yamaha, a different kind on Pearl, and another on Dynasty all in a row and all three snares had a very distinct characteristic sound that was fairly easy to tell apart. I'm pretty confident that one of the reasons Dynasty is such a popular choice with WGI lines is because the characteristic sound is a little bit 'greyer,' with less projection, and thus forces a judge to question whether a playing clarity is grey due to playing issues or instrument issues thus giving the line a very (very) slight advantage.

Yes, different combinations of heads, tuning, implement selection, and technique will be a greater sound differential cause than different manufacturers: but all things being ballpark (and even equal), there is still a noticeable characteristic sound difference, and if one can't tell the difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Nobody here is arguing that there aren't differences in materials, construction, etc that affect the natural sound characteristics created by a drum. The argument is that those differences are nearly imperceptible given the same tuning players and sticks. The problem here, as it tends to be with many opinions on this board, is that people are incapable of saying that they don't like a sound. Instead they decide that it is a bad sound. I know plenty of people who love the way Blue Devils sounded on Dynasty. I also know plenty of people who could never hear that sound again and be perfectly happy about it. The same goes with pretty much any recognizable sound. There will be people who like it, and people who don't.

That said, to suggest that Dynasty drums don't project as well, or that they sound grayer is simply ridiculous. Take a listen to Magic from 2002. It doesn't get much clearer than that snare sound, and they had no trouble making it up to the box. With indoor, far more groups go out of their way to dry out the sound rather than the other way around, but if you really want to have that conversation, I've seen my share of groups deliberately go for a low and wet sound from their drums on Pearl, Yamaha and Dynasty alike. Its a tuning choice, not a drum choice. If anything, Dynasty snares, not being free floaters, would offer a slightly dryer sound as the shell will have a slightly more dampened sound due to shell to hardware contact.

As for your Phantom Regiment comparison, you debunked your entire argument by yourself. You said yourself that they were playing with a different approach. If you've been teaching while, which you say you have, then at some point, I'm sure you've demonstrated the difference that technique makes in the sound of the drum (the old squeeze the stick and pound demonstration). To suggest that their change in approach was due to the difference in the drums is nothing more than speculation with very little to back it up. That said, if you listen carefully to the videos of those two years from finals warm ups, you'll notice that the pitches that the drums were tuned to were different. Before you try to get into your "live sound, you had to be there" argument, pitch interval relationships, not to mention actual pitches aren't going to be affected much by modern digital video technology. The pitches of the snares was considerably lower in 2007 compared to 2008, and the bass intervals were slightly different as well.

The fact is, while manufacturing methods and drum construction will obviously play a role in the sound, that role is nowhere near as vital as the tuning and approach to playing of those drums. That is what gives us such a huge depth of sound characteristics from one corps to the next, even though they are using the same drums.

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Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm sure your indoor group is wonderful, fantastic, amazing, etc.

BUUUUUUUTTTTT...

Your indoor group is not Santa Clara Vanguard and you are not Paul Rennick.

I'm sure Paul Rennick has no trouble getting service or parts from Dynasty.

Dynasty probably bends over backward for him and they should. A major, very successful group (SCV) is using their stuff.

Thank you captain obvious...

Edited by FlamMan
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Yes, different combinations of heads, tuning, implement selection, and technique will be a greater sound differential cause than different manufacturers: but all things being ballpark (and even equal), there is still a noticeable characteristic sound difference, and if one can't tell the difference that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Sounds like a G vs Bb debate. Interesting.

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That said, to suggest that Dynasty drums don't project as well, or that they sound grayer is simply ridiculous. Take a listen to Magic from 2002. It doesn't get much clearer than that snare sound, and they had no trouble making it up to the box. With indoor, far more groups go out of their way to dry out the sound rather than the other way around, but if you really want to have that conversation, I've seen my share of groups deliberately go for a low and wet sound from their drums on Pearl, Yamaha and Dynasty alike. Its a tuning choice, not a drum choice. If anything, Dynasty snares, not being free floaters, would offer a slightly dryer sound as the shell will have a slightly more dampened sound due to shell to hardware contact.

1) my experience tells me differently: Dynasty snares don't project as well, and sound grayer than Pearl and Yamaha in my experience using the same implements, technique, heads, and tuning. Listening to recordings is not a valid comparison, and while obviously some ensembles compensate better than others, there is still a difference.

2) you're right about winter lines intentionally going for a dryer sound indoors, and it's funny that you mention that. I taught a winter line that started off on Dynasty, and when he switched to Yamaha it took awhile to dampen the sound and make them sound as dry/gray as the Dynasty drums. With Dynasty is was just a matter of tuning, but the Yamaha snares were FAR more resonant and projected substantially more than the Dynasty and we had to use other methods to deaden the sound: methods that were unnecessary with the Dynasty drums because the inherent lack of projection they seem to have.

* personally, I HATE that trends in WGI, and wile some of it is the nature of the beast (playing outdoor instruments in a gym), my groups never tuned the snares low and muddy (again, that was MUCH easier to achieve with Yamaha, having the cripser, more articulate snare sound, vs the Dynasty muddier/grayer sound). Sure, it's all personal preference and what one person loathes another strives for.

As for your Phantom Regiment comparison, you debunked your entire argument by yourself. You said yourself that they were playing with a different approach. If you've been teaching while, which you say you have, then at some point, I'm sure you've demonstrated the difference that technique makes in the sound of the drum (the old squeeze the stick and pound demonstration). To suggest that their change in approach was due to the difference in the drums is nothing more than speculation with very little to back it up. That said, if you listen carefully to the videos of those two years from finals warm ups, you'll notice that the pitches that the drums were tuned to were different. Before you try to get into your "live sound, you had to be there" argument, pitch interval relationships, not to mention actual pitches aren't going to be affected much by modern digital video technology. The pitches of the snares was considerably lower in 2007 compared to 2008, and the bass intervals were slightly different as well.

Here's what I wrote (bolded for emphasis):

it seemed to me the approach was fairly different: it looked to me that the 08 line was being more aggressive and hitting harder to get a similar amount of projection

What I was saying, is that Phantom's approach to the drums seemingly changed in order to compensate for the different characteristic sound: i.e. in order to achieve similar projection and clarity, the snare line had to play with a more aggressive approach and over-compensate. Obviously it's speculation, but there is a difference. Again, both lines were pretty incredible, and I'm splitting hairs.

The fact is, while manufacturing methods and drum construction will obviously play a role in the sound, that role is nowhere near as vital as the tuning and approach to playing of those drums. That is what gives us such a huge depth of sound characteristics from one corps to the next, even though they are using the same drums.

That's mostly true, and there are so many variables that give an ensemble its characteristic sound. That being said, there is obviously a reason why most caption heads prefer one drum company to another (and it's only sometimes about the money involved coughcoughbluedevilscoughcough :ph34r::tongue: ), and that's because each manufacturer does have a unique sound characteristic: a concept that the person I originally replied to seemed to either refuse to admit or was oblivious to

Edited by perc2100
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1) my experience tells me differently: Dynasty snares don't project as well, and sound grayer than Pearl and Yamaha in my experience using the same implements, technique, heads, and tuning. Listening to recordings is not a valid comparison, and while obviously some ensembles compensate better than others, there is still a difference.

2) you're right about winter lines intentionally going for a dryer sound indoors, and it's funny that you mention that. I taught a winter line that started off on Dynasty, and when he switched to Yamaha it took awhile to dampen the sound and make them sound as dry/gray as the Dynasty drums. With Dynasty is was just a matter of tuning, but the Yamaha snares were FAR more resonant and projected substantially more than the Dynasty and we had to use other methods to deaden the sound: methods that were unnecessary with the Dynasty drums because the inherent lack of projection they seem to have.

* personally, I HATE that trends in WGI, and wile some of it is the nature of the beast (playing outdoor instruments in a gym), my groups never tuned the snares low and muddy (again, that was MUCH easier to achieve with Yamaha, having the cripser, more articulate snare sound, vs the Dynasty muddier/grayer sound). Sure, it's all personal preference and what one person loathes another strives for.

Here's what I wrote (bolded for emphasis):

What I was saying, is that Phantom's approach to the drums seemingly changed in order to compensate for the different characteristic sound: i.e. in order to achieve similar projection and clarity, the snare line had to play with a more aggressive approach and over-compensate. Obviously it's speculation, but there is a difference. Again, both lines were pretty incredible, and I'm splitting hairs.

That's mostly true, and there are so many variables that give an ensemble its characteristic sound. That being said, there is obviously a reason why most caption heads prefer one drum company to another (and it's only sometimes about the money involved coughcoughbluedevilscoughcough :ph34r::tongue: ), and that's because each manufacturer does have a unique sound characteristic: a concept that the person I originally replied to seemed to either refuse to admit or was oblivious to

And my experience tells me that Dynasty snares project just as well as any other if they are tuned well and played well.

You seem to think that dryness and grey sounds go together. It is quite the opposite. Dry drums are MORE articulate. In order to grey up the sound, you need longer sounds, meaning more tone, and more snare response. You can't have it both ways, either Dynasty drums are dryer, thus more articulate making it easier to discern dirt vs a Yamaha drum that would have more tone and response making the sound longer and "muddier", or there is no difference between the drums.

And yes, listening to recordings in the digital age is a perfectly valid comparison, particularly when comparing recordings taken by the same cameras in the same locations (i.e. show videos). To say that "you had to hear them live" is simply an attempt to preclude any rebuttal. You're also suggesting that you can judge a drum's projection from "10 feet away". That's a little bit like judging an impressionistic painting with a magnifying glass. What matters is the big picture up top.

Back to your Phantom Regiment argument, I've already pointed out that the tuning of the snares was different, thus accounting for the difference in sound, and you have also mentioned a change in approach. Your speculation as to the reasons for that change of approach are irrelevant as you are/were not an instructor with the group. Maybe they changed their approach due to show design. Maybe the snares happened to be hyping a little harder when you saw them in 2008 than when you saw them in 2007. Maybe they were mad at Remo, and thus were pounding the drums in anger. Maybe they were all on Roids. All of those reasons for the change in approach are equally likely to your reasoning because without any actual fact to back them up, they are simply irrelevant speculation. We don't know the reasons for the difference in tuning, or the difference in approach. What we do know is that those two things affect the sound of the drums much more than the type of drum being used, so your comparison between the two lines in an attempt to delineate differences between the two companies is flawed at best.

Again, the only real argument you have for any kind of noticeable limitations to the Dynasty drums is the fact that the hardware makes contact with the snare drum shell. You could argue that you can't get quite as long a tone from the drums for that reason, thus limiting how wet you can get them to sound. But you said yourself you prefer an articulate crisp sound, so I'm not sure why you would dislike a drum for making that sound more achievable.

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This. Any other argument goes against everything I've experienced over the last 25 years. It's NOT the arrow; it's the INDIAN.

And my experience tells me that Dynasty snares project just as well as any other if they are tuned well and played well.

You seem to think that dryness and grey sounds go together. It is quite the opposite. Dry drums are MORE articulate. In order to grey up the sound, you need longer sounds, meaning more tone, and more snare response. You can't have it both ways, either Dynasty drums are dryer, thus more articulate making it easier to discern dirt vs a Yamaha drum that would have more tone and response making the sound longer and "muddier", or there is no difference between the drums.

And yes, listening to recordings in the digital age is a perfectly valid comparison, particularly when comparing recordings taken by the same cameras in the same locations (i.e. show videos). To say that "you had to hear them live" is simply an attempt to preclude any rebuttal. You're also suggesting that you can judge a drum's projection from "10 feet away". That's a little bit like judging an impressionistic painting with a magnifying glass. What matters is the big picture up top.

Back to your Phantom Regiment argument, I've already pointed out that the tuning of the snares was different, thus accounting for the difference in sound, and you have also mentioned a change in approach. Your speculation as to the reasons for that change of approach are irrelevant as you are/were not an instructor with the group. Maybe they changed their approach due to show design. Maybe the snares happened to be hyping a little harder when you saw them in 2008 than when you saw them in 2007. Maybe they were mad at Remo, and thus were pounding the drums in anger. Maybe they were all on Roids. All of those reasons for the change in approach are equally likely to your reasoning because without any actual fact to back them up, they are simply irrelevant speculation. We don't know the reasons for the difference in tuning, or the difference in approach. What we do know is that those two things affect the sound of the drums much more than the type of drum being used, so your comparison between the two lines in an attempt to delineate differences between the two companies is flawed at best.

Again, the only real argument you have for any kind of noticeable limitations to the Dynasty drums is the fact that the hardware makes contact with the snare drum shell. You could argue that you can't get quite as long a tone from the drums for that reason, thus limiting how wet you can get them to sound. But you said yourself you prefer an articulate crisp sound, so I'm not sure why you would dislike a drum for making that sound more achievable.

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It was the talent of the players and the talent of the staff that won the trophy. They won in spite of the fact that they had to play Dynasty.

I totally agree with you SFZFAN the kids that played with that phantom line ( 2010 )and the staff that worked them were phenominal

but that percussion sounded and looked great also , if I may the Glassmen and not because it's my corps has been using Dynasty for quite sometime and Rob Ferguson has accomplished amazing things with that equipment , so let us see how things go in 2012 ! Hope to see DCI use them as a sponser again !

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Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm sure your indoor group is wonderful, fantastic, amazing, etc.

BUUUUUUUTTTTT...

Your indoor group is not Santa Clara Vanguard and you are not Paul Rennick.

I'm sure Paul Rennick has no trouble getting service or parts from Dynasty.

Dynasty probably bends over backward for him and they should. A major, very successful group (SCV) is using their stuff.

That is funny. I'll bet they do bend over backward for him or for whomever else might have been in charge at SCV. In fact, i'll bet if he asked nicely enough, Mr Rennick could get Dynasty to call Pearl and have them ship him some Pearl hardware too. ;)

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