corpsband Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 '11 too hard to overcome pre-conceived notions about rock shows i guess. no, that wasn't it we'll agree to disagree about that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWEST Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 There is a tad bit of cheesiness some years, musically and physically. Staff must think it's cute. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stradivarius Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Triple the brass caption score! :thumbup: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAvery Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Corps always run the risk when they do " sophisticated shows " of winning the hearts and minds of 12 judges, but in the procees losing the love of thousands of Drum Corps fans. That is precisely what happened to Star as they rose up the ranks of the placement ladder. Its a trade off some Corps are more than willing to make. That said, there are certainly years when Corps win a DCI Title AND were the favorite of most fans that year. We only have to look back as recently as 2008 to see that Phantom Regiment won a DCI Title that year with the Theme production of " Spartacus ", hardly a show and theme that would be considered " sophisticated " by most people. There have been sereral other years where Corps have won the DCI Title with shows and themes that had popular appeal and were not considered all that high brow and " sophisticated ". So its quite possible to bridge the gap and be both appealing to judges and audiences alike. Its just difficult to do, thats all. But this should nor prevent Corps show designers from attempting the difficult, imo. If you are comparing Phantom 09 to any Crown show, IMO Phantom's show is much more sophisticated. I love what Crown puts on the field, but IMO it lacks complexity. When you look at BD 2010 or Cavies 2001, the show works on many levels. If you know little about music, the show works. If you are an accomplished musician, the show works. Those championship shows have different levels of interest. IMO Crown's does not. The design seems to be somewhat superficial. And I agree there is a such thing as being too sophisticated, such as Star 93 in most people's view. I happen to like Star 93 and did so at the time, but it did take a lot of effort to listen and watch that show. The pacing and nuances were non-traditional drum corps. My point is that if you look at the shows that won over the past 20 years, they are all more sophisticated than anything Crown has done. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) the show stalled, had no where to go, didn't grow and the new ending didn't work well and save it, they ran out of show(design) Just to clarify, Crown never (recently at least) fields the actual ending to their show early season. But they do learn it early (sometimes very early) in the season and the staff decides when to plug it in. I think this past year they learned it after the first two Texas shows. It might be more accurate to say that the early season ending is a temporary ending. Anyway the actual ending was not some last ditch effort to "save" the show but instead was planned from the start. Edited March 14, 2012 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) I don't know about this suggestion some are making that DESIGN is the uber issue as if Crown's designs have been deficient or other's execution inconsequential. Take 2009 when Crown had a wonderful vehicle to work with. Was the BD design that year that superior to Crown's? And if so how? I think BD's 2009 design wasn't visionary in the way that some might view 2010. BD 2009 wasn't conceived with the crowd appeal of Phantom 2008 or the visual genius of BD 2010. What it was was an excellent showcase for BD execution. In that respect, BD 2009's design was not unlike BD 2007 or 2008. Was Crown's 2009 design inherently inferior to BD's that year? I don't think so. Crown's approach had more opportunity for crowd appeal that year. It certainly had ample opportunity for the music to shine as well. So what was lacking? I think it comes down to execution (as it should). BD was better on the field. If they got better visual scores, it wasn't because one had an inherently better design. It was because BD sold the design a little better with superior execution. To oversimplify, BD marching Crown's design still would have won the championship in 2009. How many examples are there of designs/corps combinations that can't lose from the past decade? Cavies 2002? Cadets 2005? Those are the two highest scoring shows, so maybe. Who would argue that Phantom 2008 was a design that can't lose? It almost did. I might give a nod to Cavies 2006 and BD 2010 for their visual vision. I can't see destiny in BD 2003 or 2007 or Cavies 2001 or 2004. Crown had a fair shot in 2009. They just couldn't bring the show along rapidly enough to pass BD. HH Numerically, in 2009, despite finishing 2nd, Crown was closer (point-wise) to 4th than 1st. This fact, combined with the fact that each point (or fraction of a point) is harder to get the higher you go (ie, it is harder to go from 95 to 96 than 85 to 86), I don't think it is stretching to say that Crown wasn't that close. Since I was curious, here are the recent spreads from 1st to 2nd place: 2011: .55 2010: 1.15 2009: 1.55 2008: .025 2007: .975 2006: .35 2005: 1.525 2004: .175 2003: 1.55 2002: 1.85 2001: .75 2000: 0 (tie) These numbers put the average distance from 1st to 2nd at .871... I don't think there is any argument that Cadets didn't out-design everyone in DCI in 2011, and they only won by .55... likewise, I think it is fair to say that 2009 BD was in a class of its own for that year. It's not a knock on Crown. Their design is not terrible. Their design is not semifinals quality. It's just really freaking hard to hit a homerun with your entire show. As I said before, Cadets/Cavaliers/BD have the institutional knowledge to hit homeruns, and they still strikeout and are completely (again, relatively) outclassed in the design caption in varying years. Edited March 13, 2012 by soccerguy315 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffe77 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 IMHO, their percussion program has been one the issues, at times their Achilles heel. Don't get me wrong, I love Lee Beddis arrangements.. 2 years ago the drumline was scoring really well to start the season, then Ashley (Section leader) their center snare got hurt mid-season and snare line went from 9 to 7 and the tenor line went from 5 to 4. They did not score as well the rest of the summer, I don't know why, coincidence, perhaps. Other seasons, the scores speaks for itself with Crown taking high brass in 2009 and 2011 2008 - 4th Place 2009 - 2nd Place 2010 - 6th Place 2011 - 6th Place History has shown that certain sections hold back corps winning a championship for one reason or another. BD has this issue in the late 80's to early 90's with the percussion section (also marching). Brass was killing it as always during this time. It's no accident that once the percussion program changed in 94 with Scott Johnson and Todd Ryan(marching) came on board, they have won 7 rings since then while never placing below 4th place. I'm curious to see what the new percussion staff will do, if this will put them over the hump. Or maybe they'll have the same fate as SCV in the 80's where they were 2nd for 5 years and finally won in 89 and progress back in terms of scoring not winning a title 10 yrs later. Who knows I do wonder what DCPer's (myself included) would be saying in 88 or 1989 leading into the summer on what SCV has to do to win. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellodramatic Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You missed (IMO) the biggest change - losing Andy Ebert and his team and bringing in Ron Hardin and his team. Guess we'll just have to wait and see about that one. That's what would worry me the most. Ebert and crew are ridiculously awesome at what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) IMHO, their percussion program has been one the issues, at times their Achilles heel. Don't get me wrong, I love Lee Beddis arrangements.. 2 years ago the drumline was scoring really well to start the season, then Ashley (Section leader) their center snare got hurt mid-season and snare line went from 9 to 7 and the tenor line went from 5 to 4. They did not score as well the rest of the summer, I don't know why, coincidence, perhaps. Other seasons, the scores speaks for itself with Crown taking high brass in 2009 and 2011 2008 - 4th Place 2009 - 2nd Place 2010 - 6th Place 2011 - 6th Place History has shown that certain sections hold back corps winning a championship for one reason or another. BD has this issue in the late 80's to early 90's with the percussion section (also marching). Brass was killing it as always during this time. It's no accident that once the percussion program changed in 94 with Scott Johnson and Todd Ryan(marching) came on board, they have won 7 rings since then while never placing below 4th place. I'm curious to see what the new percussion staff will do, if this will put them over the hump. Or maybe they'll have the same fate as SCV in the 80's where they were 2nd for 5 years and finally won in 89 and progress back in terms of scoring not winning a title 10 yrs later. Who knows I do wonder what DCPer's (myself included) would be saying in 88 or 1989 leading into the summer on what SCV has to do to win. well in 88, not ####### out the percussion leading leading into the main Phantom theme would have helped Edited March 14, 2012 by Jeff Ream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Just to clarify, Crown never (recently at least) fields the actual ending to their show early season. But they do learn it early (sometimes very early) in the season and the staff decides when to plug it in. I think this past year they learned it after the first two Texas shows. It might be more accurate to say that the early season ending is a temporary ending. Anyway the actual ending was not some last ditch effort to "save" the show but instead was planned from the start. Interesting. On the other side....BD 2011 had a final BB number planned ("God give me strength"), it appeared on their song list right up to the end. But they never used it, opting for a bigger "House is not a home" reprise. I guess it happens both ways. It wouldn't have mattered anyway.....Cadets had the design....period. Edited March 14, 2012 by Plan9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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