chaos001 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 (edited) Sure, but right now in DCI a 10 difficulty at 100 effectiveness will outscore a 90 difficulty at 90 effectiveness. There needs to be a balance there. I remember one of the big arguments for moving off the "tick" system was that the corps that were trying the most original stuff were just getting beaten down and losing to corps who weren't trying very much but were very clean. Ironically, nearly 30 years later DCI is in the exact same spot: difficulty is not rewarded almost at all, cleanliness is all that matters. I thought 2009 Crown was plenty effective. Even if you want to argue that the Blue Devils were cleaner (they were) or more effective (debatable), Crown's show was about 600 times harder--especially in brass; Blue Devils' brass book in 2009 is the single-easiest brass book I've heard from a DCI Champion, EVER--but was (seemingly) not rewarded for it at all. IMO YMMV and all that. But 10 difficulty at 90 effectiveness loses to 9 (or even 8) difficulty at 100 effectiveness. Cleanliness is next to godliness in DCI. I agree about Crown 2009 being much more difficult...but WAY dirtier. Their issue lately has been staging and motivated movement. The judges have to see the logical link from movement to movement within context of the music. This is why Regiment was so successful last year (in addition to their guard!) and within three-tenths of Crown. Edited May 27, 2012 by chaos001 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat-a-drag-a-phonium Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 But 10 difficulty at 90 effectiveness loses to 9 (or even 8) difficulty at 100 effectiveness. Cleanliness is next to godliness in DCI. It's the age old argument. But I see them as aiming to challenge that notion year after year. Crown would never design an "easier" show just for a score. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977Kingsmen Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I thought 2009 Crown was plenty effective. Even if you want to argue that the Blue Devils were cleaner (they were) or more effective (debatable), Crown's show was about 600 times harder--especially in brass; Blue Devils' brass book in 2009 is the single-easiest brass book I've heard from a DCI Champion, EVER--but was (seemingly) not rewarded for it at all. I really agree with that. I really thought they were robbed to be honest and I am still in shock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swine Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 ...I remember one of the big arguments for moving off the "tick" system was that the corps that were trying the most original stuff were just getting beaten down and losing to corps who weren't trying very much but were very clean. Ironically, nearly 30 years later DCI is in the exact same spot: difficulty is not rewarded almost at all, cleanliness is all that matters. In 1984 (1st tick-less year), the corps deemed most effective for the year had a 9th place drumline. Luckily for them, their ensemble was tight. Garfield absolutely WAS rewarded for difficulty that year (and more so in 1985). Sadly, many groups immediately copied what made the Cadets successful, and that didn't work for them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njthundrrd Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 In 1984 (1st tick-less year), the corps deemed most effective for the year had a 9th place drumline. Luckily for them, their ensemble was tight. Garfield absolutely WAS rewarded for difficulty that year (and more so in 1985). Sadly, many groups immediately copied what made the Cadets successful, and that didn't work for them. And had a pretty good hornline... and marched well too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 It's the age old argument. But I see them as aiming to challenge that notion year after year. Crown would never design an "easier" show just for a score. I commend them for that, but are they working twice as hard for half the effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 I commend them for that, but are they working twice as hard for half the effect? So... A. Give the performer a book which challenges them to accomplish things they never thought they could accomplish. OR B. Give the performer a book which doesn't present a challenge and can be clean much earlier. I know which choice I'd make as performer (or a designer). And let's be careful to separate EFFECT from PERFORMANCE. The brass, percussion, (guard -- at least it freakin' SHOULD BE), and VP captions are about what and how. 100% of an 8 should never come close to 95% of 10 but...it does. Too bad because they're not being faithful to the captions. (And this is really OT -- if you want to discuss more, create a thread and I'll follow you there). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos001 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 So... A. Give the performer a book which challenges them to accomplish things they never thought they could accomplish. OR B. Give the performer a book which doesn't present a challenge and can be clean much earlier. I know which choice I'd make as performer (or a designer). And let's be careful to separate EFFECT from PERFORMANCE. The brass, percussion, (guard -- at least it freakin' SHOULD BE), and VP captions are about what and how. 100% of an 8 should never come close to 95% of 10 but...it does. Too bad because they're not being faithful to the captions. (And this is really OT -- if you want to discuss more, create a thread and I'll follow you there). Why not do A & B? I agree...veering too close to a new topic. I'll got back to Rockfordland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeZ Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 You think 2009 BD is the easiest brass book by a 1st place corps? I think 1992 Cavaliers may have something to say about that. Z Sure, but right now in DCI a 10 difficulty at 100 effectiveness will outscore a 90 difficulty at 90 effectiveness. There needs to be a balance there. I remember one of the big arguments for moving off the "tick" system was that the corps that were trying the most original stuff were just getting beaten down and losing to corps who weren't trying very much but were very clean. Ironically, nearly 30 years later DCI is in the exact same spot: difficulty is not rewarded almost at all, cleanliness is all that matters. I thought 2009 Crown was plenty effective. Even if you want to argue that the Blue Devils were cleaner (they were) or more effective (debatable), Crown's show was about 600 times harder--especially in brass; Blue Devils' brass book in 2009 is the single-easiest brass book I've heard from a DCI Champion, EVER--but was (seemingly) not rewarded for it at all. IMO YMMV and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostrauser Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 You think 2009 BD is the easiest brass book by a 1st place corps? I think 1992 Cavaliers may have something to say about that. Z Nah, Cavs 92 book was harder (at least for ensemble; BD 09 has harder solo work), it was just the usual dirty-as-heck late-80s/early-90s Cavaliers brass line execution wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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