Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Woahhh, we don't use that rubbish in the UK! ;) ok fine....a few pence then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Interesting thread here. Let me say first off that I am new to DCP. I understand the intent of this type of ranking/prediction thread is one of entertainment for the members here. I get it. There are a couple of things about this type of conversation that bother me however, whether it is DCA, DCI, Winter Guard, Indoor Drumline, Marching Band, etc. I have judged at various levels for the past 30 years and I spend a lot of my time sitting in clinics, training seminars and the like talking about different sheets, philosopy of judging, numbers management, etc. etc. The first thing people need to understand is that judges react to a given performance in exactly the same way the crowd does. We are impressed by good construction and performance quality and disappointed when these and other factors are lacking. The only significant difference is that the opinions (scores) of the judging community are based on a specific set of criteria that can vary depending on the sheet in use. The average spectator is usually basing their opinion (score, if you will) off of solely their personal preferences, which is fine by the way. Judges are, and I believe should be, moved emotionally by a performance as well, just like the crowd is. Without that emotional reaction we might as well write a computer program that evaluates the musical and visual performance and be done with it. The ability for a show to "connect, if you will" with the crowd and judges is effected by many contributing factors. The vantage point of a given stadium, weather conditions on a given night, field conditions, lighting...all these things and many more contribute to the unit's ability to project their product to the evaluators (judges or fans). How does this all relate to the topic at hand? Well, you just can't compare numbers from one show to the next...period. Different show, different stadium, different weather conditions, different panel, in many cases different sheets. It's what many of us in the judging community call contest dynamics. It's the intangables from one show to the next. To say that because one corps scored a 77 at one show on the east coast and another corps scored a 75 on the west coast 3 days later, that the first corps is somehow a higher ranking than the second , and to use that as a prediction of what will happen down the road is just a waste of air. Or, to rant about a unit dropping two points from show to show when they felt it was a better run is a waste of breath. Could that group have had a better run and their score drop?.....sure it could. We try to keep some sort of consistency in the performance evaluations from show to show but the only way to do that consistently would be for the panels to study recaps from the previous shows...do we want them doing that?,,,,I certainly hope not. So, and I will get off my soap box, use these type of threads to feed your need to know but understand that this type of thinking is futile and very misleading. Let's just wait until everyone is in front of the same crowd on the same night in the same stadium with the same panel and then figure out where people stand. Even then, all that could easily change the next time around! Contest dynamics...it's one of the things that makes this activity so much fun. Good luck to all of you and your units this summer. I am looking forward to seeing the fruits of all of your hardwork on the field...and for once it won't be as a judge but as a fellow member!!! Can't wait! Dan how dare you be logical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayTee Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 If you try and compare and say well add 10 points to Kidsgroves score you might be correct and currently seed us second in the current 2012 rankings however you might be equally as wrong! Best to wait till Annapolis then I guess and what will be, will be :-) At the end of the day points are points, I'd rather have one more person on their feet throwing their Babies ;-) Surprisingly, I have to agree with Matt! (on more than on point too!) At the moment there's no real merit in comparing scores for all the aforementioned reasons and the fact that the two sets of judges (DCA & DCUK) are very very different - in terms of capability, objectivity & experience. As has been said, Bridgeport will give us a much cleare idea of where we sit. From the last trip though I'm sure we're all going to enjoy it and I'm #### certain the audience is going to love it! As Matt so succintly put it - bring on your babies!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Matczak Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) First contest dates Open Class: Atlanta CV - July 7 Allenton - July 14 Kilties - August 4 Tampa Bay Thunder - August 18 Class A: Excelsior - August 4 Shenandoah Sound - July 7 Sunrisers - July 14 White Sabers - July 21 Edited July 4, 2012 by Gary Matczak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHall Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Dan. I see your point here.Judges may "react" to a performance however their numbers are not necessarily a reaction to what they saw. About 10 years ago I could tell where we were placed in a show and by hearing the first score could tell you what our score would be. The numbers would rise evenly across the board.So yes you can compare numbers from one show to the next.It's not like the old days when scores and placing would change. Yes we had the tic system back then and it sucked BUT now I feel that after mid July we have an idea who will be top 10 AND what place they will be in. Interesting thread here. Let me say first off that I am new to DCP. I understand the intent of this type of ranking/prediction thread is one of entertainment for the members here. I get it. There are a couple of things about this type of conversation that bother me however, whether it is DCA, DCI, Winter Guard, Indoor Drumline, Marching Band, etc. I have judged at various levels for the past 30 years and I spend a lot of my time sitting in clinics, training seminars and the like talking about different sheets, philosopy of judging, numbers management, etc. etc. The first thing people need to understand is that judges react to a given performance in exactly the same way the crowd does. We are impressed by good construction and performance quality and disappointed when these and other factors are lacking. The only significant difference is that the opinions (scores) of the judging community are based on a specific set of criteria that can vary depending on the sheet in use. The average spectator is usually basing their opinion (score, if you will) off of solely their personal preferences, which is fine by the way. Judges are, and I believe should be, moved emotionally by a performance as well, just like the crowd is. Without that emotional reaction we might as well write a computer program that evaluates the musical and visual performance and be done with it. The ability for a show to "connect, if you will" with the crowd and judges is effected by many contributing factors. The vantage point of a given stadium, weather conditions on a given night, field conditions, lighting...all these things and many more contribute to the unit's ability to project their product to the evaluators (judges or fans). How does this all relate to the topic at hand? Well, you just can't compare numbers from one show to the next...period. Different show, different stadium, different weather conditions, different panel, in many cases different sheets. It's what many of us in the judging community call contest dynamics. It's the intangables from one show to the next. To say that because one corps scored a 77 at one show on the east coast and another corps scored a 75 on the west coast 3 days later, that the first corps is somehow a higher ranking than the second , and to use that as a prediction of what will happen down the road is just a waste of air. Or, to rant about a unit dropping two points from show to show when they felt it was a better run is a waste of breath. Could that group have had a better run and their score drop?.....sure it could. We try to keep some sort of consistency in the performance evaluations from show to show but the only way to do that consistently would be for the panels to study recaps from the previous shows...do we want them doing that?,,,,I certainly hope not. So, and I will get off my soap box, use these type of threads to feed your need to know but understand that this type of thinking is futile and very misleading. Let's just wait until everyone is in front of the same crowd on the same night in the same stadium with the same panel and then figure out where people stand. Even then, all that could easily change the next time around! Contest dynamics...it's one of the things that makes this activity so much fun. Good luck to all of you and your units this summer. I am looking forward to seeing the fruits of all of your hardwork on the field...and for once it won't be as a judge but as a fellow member!!! Can't wait! Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 First contest dates Open Class: Atlanta CV - July 7 Allenton - July 14 Kilties - August 4 Tampa Bay Thunder - August 18 Class A: Excelsior - August 4 Shenandoah Sound - July 7 Sunrisers - July 14 White Sabers - July 21 Several corps, in particular the Class A corps, getting into the mix in the next few weeks. The picture should be clearer then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Detweiler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Dan. I see your point here.Judges may "react" to a performance however their numbers are not necessarily a reaction to what they saw. About 10 years ago I could tell where we were placed in a show and by hearing the first score could tell you what our score would be. The numbers would rise evenly across the board.So yes you can compare numbers from one show to the next.It's not like the old days when scores and placing would change. Yes we had the tic system back then and it sucked BUT now I feel that after mid July we have an idea who will be top 10 AND what place they will be in. Perhaps the consistency in spreads was a result of a consistency of relative error between the groups. Groups do improve over time. Often members tend to see the effort they put into their show over a period of time as being more beneficial than the effort put in by another group. This is understandable but not always the case. More often than not, a group is consistently above another group because they are consistently better at addressing the criteria for which they are being evaluated. Now, having said that, I realize that there are times when previous history sometimes will sway a judge to "give them the benefit of the doubt". This shouldn't happen, but it does. Judges are human too. I will say this, in 30 years of judging I can not site one example where this prejudice was used on a concious, knowing, manipulative level...not once. Like I said in my first post, judges are subject to the same emotional reactions that fans are. We need to constantly remind ourselves as judges to evaluate the product placed before us on any given night, and not base decisions on what could be there or what we think will be there at the end of the season. Judging is truely an art that is developed over an extensive period of time. This is especially true of numbers management. That is why judge training and practice are so important. Just my two cents! Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPeashey Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 accepting scores by DCI judges using DCA sheets is fine... after all... we all know that a judge's number is based from the first score he gives out each night - so obviously SHOW DYNAMICS has an effect but the "range" is there as the same sheets are used... even though one should avoid exact comparisons of numbers from one show to another for that reason... However, comparing scores from DCA sheets to DCE/DCUK sheets is not valid in any way... The European sheets (and judges) seem more slanted toward execution... a very wise Brit once told me that this was to "protect" their system as almost all of the corps average from 15 to 30 brass... it seems to me to be tilted to ensure that EFFECT does NOT become overbearing and allow a large corps to totally dominate... I spent considerable time studying the video of Kidsgrove and The Company, trying desparately to figure out how The Company has proven to be MOST competitive with Kidsgrove... This slanted more toward performance oriented judging is the ONLY possible conclusion... The Company is amazing - BUT - on DCA sheets Kidsgrove would not only beat them everytime, but beat them by quite a lot... and while intelligent, drum corps savvy audiences in the USA would absolutely appreciate and LOVE The Company, their 18 horns would not be able to generate the GE numbers that Kidsgrove did/will get - much due to people throwing babies on the field at their effect oriented show... I also seemed to feel that the Company's wonderful percussion section - one I would have thought was designed to offset and augment 64 horns (or more - think DCI)... I sensed balance problems that for whatever reason didn't seem to be reflected in their scores... For those who have not seen The Company - don't underestimate what they can achieve... it's like looking at and listening to 25% of Blue Devils horn line playing MOST difficult and pleasing arrangements... but my point is... they do that with a LARGER (or almost larger) drum line than Blue Devils - and you can only tame a machine like that just so much... DCA on the other hand, has spent the last 25 seasons trying desparately to regain and keep the audience - entertaining the audience is now the FIRST priority... period!!! Now - let's talk 2012 and these "rankings" comparing scores on separate judging systems... First - Don't do that... Second, I have just spent considerable time this week with the video of Kidsgrove Scouts from last weekend... While I admit that not every observation is perfect from just watching a video... here are a few comments I'm willing to make: 1. They are LARGER and considerably better than 2010... they may well be the 2nd or 3rd largest corps at DCA prelims... Size isn't everything - I know - but they have amazing quality also (DCA finals 2010, 6th place just missing top 5 helped show that) 2. The biggest difference is that the 2012 show appears to be WRITTEN for DCA and DCA sheets much more so than in 2010. The staff really went to school during their 2010 trip and this program is MUCH stronger. 3. Rob Swindells is not only a strong Corps Director and Drum Major, he is one heck of a visual arranger and could write for any corps - anywhere (including DCI World Class) 4. Can't wait for Bridgeport CT on August 25th... The audience will be the winner! 5. Pennsauken, NJ the next day will be a really fun... 6. A huge THANK YOU to the members and management of Kidsgrove Scouts. You will not believe how much more expensive the 2012 DCA tour will be than 2010... Any lessor organization or less determined group of performers would have bagged the whole idea of coming as soon as they saw the current air fares... So if you get the opportunity to meet any of our British Friends during the last 2 weeks in August, please take that extra moment to tell them how much you appreciate them coming over the big pond... What a fantastic show DCA Annapolis is going to be!!! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Great post, Tom. That's stuff I didn't know, and I doubt many other do either. Very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatfish Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I don't want to imagine what the total cost of the tour is, I just keep repeating in my head about how it'll be worth every penny! I can't describe in words what I think about Rob Swindells, he goes above and beyond and he is the definition of devotion, passion and commitment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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