ForTheCommonGood Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Definitely sort of imposible for them to miss finals now, or let alone drop 2 the bottom 4 with the scores they are making. The corps will get there. They will most likely stay in the top 6. Its just like last year when corps like Scouts were on fire and ended up with 10th. Now its just the reverse for Cavies. With the scores I've been seeing, I can tell you that Cavies are probably going to edge out alot of corps, like Scouts and Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudFuel Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Unless I am mistaken, design only counts for half of the score in certain categories... which should mean if a corps performs the hell out of a 'less-than-desirably-designed-show' then they still have a chance at besting corps who perform ok with a good design and corps who perform ok with a poor design. I've yet to see the show, but I can't see the 'drop' happening so fast (ie top 3 to out of top 12 in one year). I am realistic and don't see us catching the top 5 any time soon, but to drop out of top 12 just seems very unlikely in such a short span of time. Either way, I think this situation is either a lack of 'talent' in regards to design or a lack of 'care' in regards to how DCI is scoring... I will know for sure in 7 days, but I'd imagine that the performance ability of the corps is still where it has been in the recent past. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 You didn't see adjustments to scores in Chambersburg. You saw a different night, with different performers, and different judge's reads. This is not an exact science, and nobody is making adjustments based on what happened at another event. There are no official rankings, so there do not have to be any kind of "balance". The judges are all taught to judge what they see. The drop in scores you saw could be attributed to any number of things. Yes, in an ideal world, you would see the final numbers correspond directly with the corps improvement, and you would never see numbers go down, but the fact is, these guys aren't robots. Even if it were the exact same panel, the venue is different, the corps performance will be different etc. For example, let's say you're a judge, and you're getting ready for the first performance. You know that you still have 7 more corps to watch, so while your main focus is to judge the group in front of you, you know that you can't give that group a perfect score unless they really earn it, because what happens if the next 7 corps are better? Is it really more important that the corps your watching get an 81 rather than a 79, or is it more important that the placements and spreads are correct? Maybe that first corps didn't really impress you all that much. So you give them a 75, which happens to be lower than the 76 they got the night before. That's what you think is fair. What if the next corps isn't as good, but they scored a 75 the night before. You can't give them a 75 because they weren't as good as the corps before them. The first number that a judge puts on the board has a lot of bearing on where the rest of the numbers will fall. That's not to say that they are slotting, or that anything is predetermined. It simply means that the priority is on getting the placements correct, not on numbers improving from night to night. There is no conspiracy. Its not political. Knowing several judges in various circuits both outdoor and indoor, I can tell you that the ones I know all care deeply about getting it right. This is a really good explanation of what the judge is thinking when they assign scores. Thanks for posting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCHEZman Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Very well stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobrien Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 BK Spirit have better designs and likely could finish ahead. Cavies in 11 or 12 a real possibility. Out of finals also possible, but not likely!! Funny, I've looked at Spirit, and Madison, and BK, and while all of them are fine, from a visual standpoint, none is particularly noteworthy on their own. They're fine. And when you look at what Cavaliers visual staff gave them, you see...a design that's no worse, not really that much different, from what the others in this tier have. I think some of what's happening here is that people are comparing Rosemont's program not to the other corps out there, but to Rosemont's own past work, and deciding that since it's not as distinct and dominant as it once was, it must actually be worse than other programs that are, for all intents and puposes, pretty much on the same level. From what I've seen and heard so far this year, the guys just aren't yet executing the program at the level everyone's come to expect. They'll get there. But the design...I dunno, I'm not a huge fan of the guard look, but musically, it's got some interesting hooks, and the arrangements aren't afraid to try melding lots of different influences (do they all work? Probably not, but when you're starting with chestnuts, better to go ballsy than playing literal and safe, imho). They'll need to keep clarifying how the four segments of the show tie together, but if they can do that, find a couple 'wow moments' (lacking now, I think), and keep working execution so that they're performing at a top 3 level, they'll be fine. (I was around in the early 80s when Ralph Pace was replaced by Steve Brubaker, and there were a lot of folks back then talking about how the visual program suffered as a result - that talk pretty much died out within a couple years of Brubaker finding his groove with the corps. If this is an off-year for the corps, but they use it as a learning experience, it's all good.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Boo Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Perhaps what we need is thread titled, "Which corps is in danger of missing Finals if/when Cavaliers' scores go up?" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Corps Guy Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Perhaps what we need is thread titled, "Which corps is in danger of missing Finals if/when Cavaliers' scores go up?" Well said Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Perhaps what we need is thread titled, "Which corps is in danger of missing Finals if/when Cavaliers' scores go up?" Green through and through!!! As you should be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I can see early that the numbers can and will mislead you. My point was that people on here say that scores are inflated in some places. Then you see the same Corps with the same full panel of judges scores drop. I understand the idea of spreads, but it just seems strange to me when I read that the scores need to come down because they are inflated and then the next show they do. I thank you for helping try and understand this more. please dont read into this and think I am mad or upset about any scores, I am not. I am just trying to get a grip on it all. Going back decades and decades, judges are taught that their first two jobs in order of importance are to Rank and Rate the corps. Ranking is the order of finish, Rating is the spread between each corps. Every number given by each judge is keyed off of the initial number assigned to the first corps performing. On Saturday that was Surf (in WC, at any rate). Sunday was Teal Sound. If Surf was given a relatively high score on Saturday, the subsequent scores would...or at least should...remain on the high side the rest of the show. Conversely, if Teal Sound received a score on the low end Sunday, then all scores assigned throughout the show would...or again, should...be reflective of that. Add to the mix... judging is not, and never has been, and exact science the variability in performance level by the individual corps in the case of field judges...where they are located on the field throughout the show...did they miss a hot mess in the battery on Saturday but catch it on Sunday, based on where they were located at both shows, for instance judges in the pressbox...how high is it, and how close or far from the field are they stationed...is the sound carrying, or are weather conditions adversely impacting the sound as it makes its way up to the box? where the judges are different, or are on different captions...variability in how the individual judge interprets the judging criteria...what affects judge 'A' one way and judge 'B' another...what are each of their "hot buttons", so to speak. Those are some factors that may result in variability of scores show-to-show....IMO anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan of the Arts Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Perhaps what we need is thread titled, "Which corps is in danger of missing Finals if/when Cavaliers' scores go up?" Blue Stars I said it at the first shpw of the season when I saw Blue Stars. I said, "if either Crossmen, Spirit, and Colts are good, Blue Stars could fall out of the top twelve." Both Crossmen and Spirit are good. BK has a better visual program beating out Blue Stars. Irving Fan of the Arts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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