Score Upsets of 2012....

[Jeff Ream]

So obviously...we've had a crazy year so far with the scores...corps who weren't even in finals are placing 6th!

So the question....is the new judging format really having that much havoc on the activity in its first year of implementation...or are these corps really just 'that' good this year?

**Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the upset, I welcome it!

some corps are cleaner.

some corps have shows that are connecting better with the sheets

and until everyone is all together for the firsttime, it's too early to tell exactly what neighborhood everyone will fall into...and then new endings will be in, rewrites on other sections, you name it.

[skywhopper]

Madison is no surprise, they have been improving consistently for the past two years, and have great staff. Spirit is a little more of a surprise, but they had a great year last year and have a thrillingly entertaining show this year. Similarly Xmen had an amazing show last year and are no surprise to be on the upswing. Cavies' drop is a surprise, but only because of the reputation. I don't think the judges have it wrong.

Are the sheets making a difference? I'm not sure. I feel like I'm seeing more corps outperforming their books (ie getting a better performance than rep subcaption score) than we usually do, but that's just my impression and maybe isn't correct. I also feel like certain judges are more likely to flip the scores' typical relationship, so maybe some judges are reading the new sheets differently than others.

[JAZZER]

I was in Kalamazoo last weekend to see Blue Stars pass by the Cavvies...........that was startling to witness!

4 The Cavaliers 73.550

5 Blue Stars 71.400

[jwillis35]

Otherwise, we've had 3 weeks of

CC > Cadets by 1

Cadets > Crossmen by 8, followed directly in line by Colts Surf Teal in that order almost every night

BD > PR by 2

PR > SCV by 3

Coats > Madison by 2

Madison > Cavs by 1+

Night in, night out nearly the exact same results. They will change places eventually but was hoping the new system gives us less slotting.

It's not slotting if the better corps is winning. It's called reality. I will admit that we do see some slotting of captions from time to time, but I think we don't give DCI judges enough credit. They are very good at what they do. If Madison puts on a great brass show and it's musical enough and clean enough to beat the Bluecoats, then the judge will show that. I always believe that the judges want to give credit when it's due. They are looking and listening for it. I don't think they walk in with pre-determined ideas of who gets what. If BD or the Cadets have a bad day, they want to show that. If Crown is off the charts, they want to show that.

What never gets said, but what I think many people hope for, is a new era in DCI in which there is perody and on any given year we have 10 or more corps that can win major shows. Everyone wants "their" corps to do well, and everyone wants perody. Everyone also wants NO slotting, but they want things to be fair and equal.

Until your favorite corps is as good as BD, Cadets, Cavaliers (even though the Cavs are down this year they are still a long-time great) they will not beat them consistantly. Carolina Crown and Phantom Regiment are the only two corps this year that look as though they can beat some of the big boys. Crown may take it all.

How did they do it? Well, what they DIDN'T do was wait for the judging system to make it happen for them. THEY GOT GOOD!!!! The easiest way to fix slotting with your corps is to GO GET GOOD, REALLY GOOD!! This is what Spirit did. Yes, they have always been good, but they really ramped-it-up this year. That coupled with the Cavaliers slow start and they are a corps perfectly positioned to take advantage. The Boston Crusaders may also take advantage of this.

The use of the word slotting when whining about one's corps tends to make me think that those fans want a gift that somehow they think is rightly deserved. If you want to beat a corps in a certain caption or overall score, then recruit, design, and teach a show that can BEAT THEM. Don't wait for the judging system to fix your misery.

[Shadowtron]

Of course, anything over a few points is insurmountable, I understand that. Madison's not better than Coats at this time. But this is a subjective activity with performances that are up and down throughout the season...yet the scores never reflect it.

Notice how the scores varied between the two opening weekend shows when results were hidden, and how they have settled in since. Can't Cadets, just for one night catch Crown in music effect? Surely BD's guard or brass has had an off night vs Phantom?

Come Finals week, we'll be able to predict the top 3 of every caption with ease, and it's unlikely there will be any swaps.

[ShortAndFast]

It's not slotting if the better corps is winning. It's called reality. I will admit that we do see some slotting of captions from time to time, but I think we don't give DCI judges enough credit. They are very good at what they do. If Madison puts on a great brass show and it's musical enough and clean enough to beat the Bluecoats, then the judge will show that. I always believe that the judges want to give credit when it's due. They are looking and listening for it. I don't think they walk in with pre-determined ideas of who gets what. If BD or the Cadets have a bad day, they want to show that. If Crown is off the charts, they want to show that.

What never gets said, but what I think many people hope for, is a new era in DCI in which there is perody and on any given year we have 10 or more corps that can win major shows. Everyone wants "their" corps to do well, and everyone wants perody. Everyone also wants NO slotting, but they want things to be fair and equal.

I completely agree. There is more parity in DCI than at any time since the early 90s. 88-96 saw Scouts, Vanguard, Cadets, Star, Cavaliers, Blue Devils & Phantom all win championships. In many people's views, that was DCI's golden age and the competitive parity definitely contributed to it.

As a corps, you control whether you are good enough to challenge for the title. Whether you actually win is less in your control: your show design vs the designs of the other contenders; what the judges reward that year; etc. But if you put out shows at that level consistently, eventually you're going to win.

In recent years Cadets, BD, Crown, Cavaliers, Phantom & Bluecoats have performed shows of championship caliber, with SCV, Boston, Madison clearly trying to bring their programs up to that level. All of these high quality programs means that a corps will fall farther when they have a bad year. Cadets had a weak show in 2008, and fell to 5th. Phantom had a bad year in 2009 and fell to 9th. Cavaliers are having a tough time in 2012 and could conceivably fall as far as 11th.

If you're a diehard for a corps having a bad year, consider that parity also means you can bounce back more quickly. Phantom 9th -> 6th -> 5th -> 4th(?) is a great example.

[Dan Detweiler]

Of course, anything over a few points is insurmountable, I understand that. Madison's not better than Coats at this time. But this is a subjective activity with performances that are up and down throughout the season...yet the scores never reflect it.

Notice how the scores varied between the two opening weekend shows when results were hidden, and how they have settled in since. Can't Cadets, just for one night catch Crown in music effect? Surely BD's guard or brass has had an off night vs Phantom?

Come Finals week, we'll be able to predict the top 3 of every caption with ease, and it's unlikely there will be any swaps.

Gotta disagree with you here. "Can't somebody have a bad night"...sure. "Will scores fluctuate some"...sure. But, when a product is assembled that is consistently more in line with the criteria on the sheet than another product, it is going to take more than an off night to overcome. Like it has been stated in other posts, drastic shifts in placements over the course of a few weeks just isn't going to normally happen. It takes significant improvement (changes to parts of the show that aren't working, cleaning, defining, etc.) to overcome these differences in programing and training. Consistancy is the name of the game. Consistancy of design, programming, teaching, recruiting, etc., etc. and I mean over years, not weeks.

Dan

[DCfan76]

Of course, anything over a few points is insurmountable, I understand that. Madison's not better than Coats at this time. But this is a subjective activity with performances that are up and down throughout the season...yet the scores never reflect it.

Notice how the scores varied between the two opening weekend shows when results were hidden, and how they have settled in since. Can't Cadets, just for one night catch Crown in music effect? Surely BD's guard or brass has had an off night vs Phantom?

Come Finals week, we'll be able to predict the top 3 of every caption with ease, and it's unlikely there will be any swaps.

Well put. I agree.

[rkfdPRphan]

Of course, anything over a few points is insurmountable, I understand that. Madison's not better than Coats at this time. But this is a subjective activity with performances that are up and down throughout the season...yet the scores never reflect it.

Notice how the scores varied between the two opening weekend shows when results were hidden, and how they have settled in since. Can't Cadets, just for one night catch Crown in music effect? Surely BD's guard or brass has had an off night vs Phantom?

Come Finals week, we'll be able to predict the top 3 of every caption with ease, and it's unlikely there will be any swaps.

There's one thing that I wish more DCP posters understood, there is a degree of difficulty with each score.

As the season progresses, so must the abilities of the corps members.

When one level of 'achievement' is reached the corps is judged on the next.

The degree of difficulty rises, so even if you have a 'bad' night, you will still score above someone with a lesser degree of difficulty program that is near perfect.

It's like diving competition.

A swan dive, no matter how clean and perfect is not going to have the added degree of difficulty multiplier of a backwards, double twist, pike whatever - even if the diver doesnt go cleanly into the water.....its the multiplier for added difficulty.

The imperfect difficult dive will win every time over the perfect less difficult.

So we need to look at the degree of difficulty between the corps and then the execution and we need to learn the degrees of difficulty.

I wish DCI did more to help us understand the degrees, the levels, the competition is graded on.....not that it would change some opinions on DCP, but all of us would have a better understanding of what the judges are looking for and judging on.

(fyi. I went to a judging class years ago in Champaign IL and got to see the judging sheets at that time. It was an eye-opening experience that lead me to look at things I had not thought of looking for previously. By now, I'm sure the sheets have changed a great deal, and the members are expected to achieve even more.)

[theCHEZman]

Of course, anything over a few points is insurmountable, I understand that. Madison's not better than Coats at this time. But this is a subjective activity with performances that are up and down throughout the season...yet the scores never reflect it.

Notice how the scores varied between the two opening

weekend shows when results were hidden, and how they have settled in since. Can't Cadets, just for one night catch Crown in music effect? Surely BD's guard or brass has had an off night vs Phantom?

Come Finals week, we'll be able to predict the top 3 of every caption with ease, and it's unlikely there will be any swaps.

I agree. It seems the judges say ok, Cadets had a great ? guard show tonight, I will have them only 0.2 under Crown vs 0.3.