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How can smaller DCI corps survive?


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..Don played dictator, king, mafia Don BUT he had his little tight knit group..

This actually says it all; Don was part of that tight knit group; and at that time the tight knit group realized that they needed DCI not because it was a collection of competing of corps, but they, the tight knit group, had actually "created" DCI.

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Then do it; don't talk about it; do it. And report your response from him on DCP. Just be aware that by the very nature of the question being so deep coming from a person Hop does not know on a personal level it "is" going to be a disrespectful question.

Well if I ever had the chance I wouldn't start with "the" question. Gotta build some trust or show that you're not being a jerkwad first. And I know being a total stranger makes things harder if not impossible, how about give the rest of us poor slubs on DCP a LITTLE credit Stu. I just disagree with your apparent opinion that asking a question on a controvesial subject is being disrespectful no matter how it's handled.

At one time GH would have been on my list of people to talk to to try to find out why he has the opinions he does. Kinda goes with my job of finding out why things in the IT world act they way they do given differeng scenarios. BUt there was a bruhaha about how he handled a "want ad" a few years back and I changed my mind about wanting to talk (not that the chance of taht was ever possible).

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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I think the smaller corps are a large part of what keeps drum corps, drum corps. Don't get me wrong I love the big corps, i.e. Blue Devils, Carolina Crown. But the little guys like Genesis, Forte, Revolution are just as much a corps as the Blue Devils. rolleyes.gif

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The argument has been made that the DCI collective is allowing the rich to get richer while the smaller corps get weaker.

I am sorry but this has been the goal of certain people to eliminate the smaller corps. I thought from the very get go that this was the wrong approach. They actually squeezed out entire drum corps circuits. Where are the Canadian Corps? In 1981 and 1982 when I marched there were nearly 100 corps competing in Montreal. Now you are lucky to see 30.

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Nice idea, but the top 8 corps would never go for it. They now already consider the lower corps indirect freeloaders and don't want to contribute directly to them. You think the elite corps care about the lower corps? The tour of champions is only a temporary appeasement to prevent the top 8 from leaving dci now. I was told personally by a top 8 director last year that the top 8 directors want to pull out of dci. It's still on their to-do list. It's just a matter of when. A lot of people don't get that the dci elite corps' goal from the beginning was to get rid of the lower level corps. Don Pesceone, director of dci at the time, actually said it in a interview in about the late 70's. He said that dci considered the local circuits to be their biggest competition. Sounds nuts, but he actually said it. The interview had to be in drum corps world (or maybe drum corps news), because there was no internet back then. They had to wait to wipe out the local circuits until they had another source for their feeder corps. They gradually changed to another source for members. It's called the college bands and some elite high school bands. Why do you think the announcer at all current dci shows gives the butt kissing announcement to the band directors? They choose the college and high school bands, because they wouldn't be competition for dci, IN THE SUMMER. Their plan is almost complete. The regional organizations (dc east, dc midwest, dc west, etc) are gone. The local circuits are gone. The lower level corps are almost gone (Teal Sound and Racine are the latest to go). Do you think that the gradual increase to multi million dollar budgets to compete successfully was an random occurrence or was it to get rid of their remaining competition? It's similar to what happened to the auto industry in the 1900's. The little guys just couldn't compete. Dci, when the elite corps were running the board of directors (they aren't anymore), could have put in budget limits long ago. Did they? Next step is for the top 8 to pull out of dci completely and leave the remnants to hang on until the crowds and money gravitate to the top 8 shows only. Just like what dci did to the VFW and American Legion. They have their own exclusive shows and their own championship now (meadowlands). Don't they? There will only be about 8 corps left. Are the type of kids today who once were served by small local drum corps better off? So sad, we let it happen.

27SoCal, I agree with you 100 percent. I was trying to make the same point. It is a disgrace to humanity. It is no longer about the development of the youth. It is now a business. I made the point before I saw your response to include the Canadian Corps. We knew #### well ahead of time what was going on. And what the intention of the higher forces in DCI were. I personally used to enjoy watching the smaller corps more so that the big boys. I lost interest when DCI eliminated the local circuits and made it DCI Atlantic. I was sick to my stomach. There would be no more Garden State Circuit. There would be no more Eastern Mass. Circuit. Etc,...etc

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27SoCal, I agree with you 100 percent. I was trying to make the same point. It is a disgrace to humanity. It is no longer about the development of the youth. It is now a business. I made the point before I saw your response to include the Canadian Corps. We knew #### well ahead of time what was going on. And what the intention of the higher forces in DCI were. I personally used to enjoy watching the smaller corps more so that the big boys. I lost interest when DCI eliminated the local circuits and made it DCI Atlantic. I was sick to my stomach. There would be no more Garden State Circuit. There would be no more Eastern Mass. Circuit. Etc,...etc

Thank you. You and I marched around the same time in the northeast. I used to march with a corps in the Northeastern Circuit. How long has that been gone? I also marched with a top five dci corps. I've seen this situation from both sides, small and big corps. When we marched, the purpose of drum corps was to keep potential "juvenile delinquents" off the streets. Do you remember the fist fights between the big city corps after shows? Now the purpose of drum corps is primarily a summer camp for college music majors. To add dci to their resumes, so they can get a high school band teaching job after they graduate. That's nice, but is that keeping a lot of kids out of gangs? Which is more important to american society today? Which has done more damage? We don't have to deny what the intention of the elite dci corps was and still is. To wipe out their competition, the non-elite corps. We, and a lot of other people lived though it and saw it first hand.

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Thank you. You and I marched around the same time in the northeast. I used to march with a corps in the Northeastern Circuit. How long has that been gone? I also marched with a top five dci corps. I've seen this situation from both sides, small and big corps. When we marched, the purpose of drum corps was to keep potential "juvenile delinquents" off the streets. Do you remember the fist fights between the big city corps after shows? Now the purpose of drum corps is primarily a summer camp for college music majors. To add dci to their resumes, so they can get a high school band teaching job after they graduate. That's nice, but is that keeping a lot of kids out of gangs? Which is more important to american society today? Which has done more damage? We don't have to deny what the intention of the elite dci corps was and still is. To wipe out their competition, the non-elite corps. We, and a lot of other people lived though it and saw it first hand.

I also marched when you guys did and still teach today..Im not disagreeing with either of you BUT its not the 70s or 80s any more...those circuits and corps died mostly from bad management..they also as time went on could not serve the changing youth and what they needed...is not the same world at all..Kids today have plenty to do and arent looking to find something to get out of the house..its a total different world.....drum corps not the only thing that is different...wheres the church groups, the community programs, local clubs....all gone..they couldnt afford to keep up either...to think our activity would escape time is plain silly

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I also marched when you guys did and still teach today..Im not disagreeing with either of you BUT its not the 70s or 80s any more...those circuits and corps died mostly from bad management..they also as time went on could not serve the changing youth and what they needed...is not the same world at all..Kids today have plenty to do and arent looking to find something to get out of the house..its a total different world.....drum corps not the only thing that is different...wheres the church groups, the community programs, local clubs....all gone..they couldnt afford to keep up either...to think our activity would escape time is plain silly

Marched 70s/80s too. If anyone wants to blame DCI for all of Junior corps woes in the 70s and 80s look at the difference between then and now in the Senior/All Age world as a lot is the same. Won't say DCI is totally blamesless and disagree with what is going on with the non top corps but IMO DCI wasn't the only reason for the decline.

Big difference I see in your post and my Sr experience is the non-DCA circuits died from lack of corps. Either the corps in the lesser circuits went away or DCA corps went away and the corps in the lesser cicruits filled their places and quit going to the lesser circuit shows (reason: more $$$ for DCA shows).

PS: I ended up marching DCA and two lesser circuits (RCA, ICA).

Not an expert in the Jr corps and why many disolved, but understand many city based corps died because of lack of sponsorship as the sponsors declined along with the city. Seeing the decline of my home city that I can understand. After all how many churches, AL and VFW Posts dropped corps sponsorship because of declining membership, money or even closing the doors?

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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Thank you. You and I marched around the same time in the northeast. I used to march with a corps in the Northeastern Circuit. How long has that been gone? I also marched with a top five dci corps. I've seen this situation from both sides, small and big corps. When we marched, the purpose of drum corps was to keep potential "juvenile delinquents" off the streets. Do you remember the fist fights between the big city corps after shows? Now the purpose of drum corps is primarily a summer camp for college music majors. To add dci to their resumes, so they can get a high school band teaching job after they graduate. That's nice, but is that keeping a lot of kids out of gangs? Which is more important to american society today? Which has done more damage? We don't have to deny what the intention of the elite dci corps was and still is. To wipe out their competition, the non-elite corps. We, and a lot of other people lived though it and saw it first hand.

The 'purpose' of drum corps was as varied as the number of corps, depending on where they were based. Inner city corps, esp those sponsored by the CYO and PAL groups, certainly had that 'keep them off the streets' as one factor. Corps from the burbs...not really. And even the top inner city corps had kids move from the smaller corps from the burbs because they wanted to march with the best...BS and St Lucy's from Newark, NJ come to mind in my immediate area. The GSC corps I joined in 1964 had members join St Lucy's as far back as 64/65, and I camethisclose to joining BS (my own favorite through the 60's) after the 69 season with a GSC corps and some from that corps did join BS. I joined Garfield.

DCI did not cause corps like those to fold...nor the hundred of small corps through the 70's and 80's that died.

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To return briefly to the OP.

This idea assumes that there are 12-15 current World Class Corps that seem to be using the current touring model with success. These top corps, especially the G7 + a few, seem to have the resources to attract the kids with not only talent, but also with the money to afford the expenses involved. They have a sound network of alumni, fund raising, and sponsorships that allow them to currently work with the relatively small amount of kids in their corps who need help financially. This is a good thing, and the experience they provide should have certain amount of exclusivity I suppose.

The part that has been exposed is the struggle that smaller corps have with attracting ANY members, and who are forced to balance putting pressure on members to pay their dues with fielding a competitive corps. It seems that these corps also tend to rely on membership payments as their main source of income. These corps have less alumni and general public support, so they do not have the funds needed to sponsor or give scholarships to the higher percentage of their members who may need it.

Part of the issue here is correlating "success" to placement. Many of the corps in the lower tier of the World Class standings are at least as well managed as the top corps. They have smart, creative, and fiscally prudent directors and boards, excellent staff, supportive alumni, and yes, talented members. That they do not consistently place well does not mean the organizations are in danger, or that they cannot handle a tour (or some version of it), or that they struggle to provide their members with a quality educational experience. One could argue that they actually do more real "education" than the top corps, which are essentially semi-pro at this point, but that's not quite on point here.

This is not to say that all is well in DCI land, but let's not make the mistake of conflating competitive prowess with organizational solidity. Let's not make that mistake in particular because that is the mistake that many of the top corps' leaders seem to be making these days....

The argument has been made that the DCI collective is allowing the rich to get richer while the smaller corps get weaker. This should not be the mission of the organization.

This is true, and has been true from the beginning. Those of you who rant against the G7 (and I am emphatically on your side) often seem to overlook that it's in many ways a logical end of the financial model that DCI has used for 40 years. That is one which pays corps primarily through competition appearance fees -- fees that are structured based on the previous year's competitive standing. No one ever seemed to complain too much about this until the G7 asked for a much bigger cut. But given the earlier payout structure, it really was only a matter of time until they asked to renegotiate percentages.

I think the stability and future of DCI actually rests in going in the exact opposite direction the G7 want to take it, with financing and competition entirely separated from one another. Kids should compete. Corps as organizations should not. Financial rewards should not be based on what a corps puts on the field. They should be based entirely on fiscal and organizational evaluations of the member corps that determine their financial health, organizational solidity, and basic quality of education. For the corps at the top who have multiple revenue streams, I doubt this would detract much from what you see on the field, but on the other end it might level the playing field a bit and perhaps (and more importantly) prevent more Teal Sounds, etc.

Drum corps' problems are myriad and complex, but removing direct financial implications from a 10-12 minute performance would go a long way towards creating a healthier and more stable activity. At the very least it would help neutralize the poison in the well and reaffirm the activity's status as an educational nonprofit, which some leaders in the activity seem to have forgotten lately. Whether wiser heads have the political will and ability to prevail is, of course, another matter entirely.

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