Hello Choreography, Goodbye Marching

[perc2100]

I definitely think that DCI missed the boat in their new so-called fan-friendly judging system. IMHO most fans (and not just "dinosaurs") believe that a well-executed and innovative marching show should be rewarded more than a show with less marching that uses props to literally prop-up their visual effectiveness. I agree that we are really getting away from our roots by doing this --- we still call ourselves drum corps, right?

If you honestly believe that Blue Devils are not a well-exeuting and innovative show this year, then I for one am 100% glad we don't have fan judging. Not only would fan judging be corrupted by alumni and other die-hards, but fans really don't have as good a knowledge of the sheets as they need to when evaluating a great show design/performance. Fans can 'judge' who's "best" by cheering like crazy and showing everyone who the crowd favorite is. Other than that, I'm happy that trained judges decided placement (even if I disagree with them at times)

You don't have to look any farther than the Olympics to see that in international sports that difficulty is essential in achieving a good score. In gymnastics, for example, you start with a maximum score based on difficulty, and then you are judged on how well you execute it. Yes, you can add to your score for unique artistic moves as well --- but it is secondary to difficulty and execution.

Actually, in gymnastics you start with a 0.0 in Difficulty and the points build-up as the routine goes on (kind of like DCI's build-up score philosophy)

Execution is judged on a tick-esque system, with the 'caption' starting at a 10.0 and being dropped for every perceived mistake.

What's interesting about this system, is there is no real limit on how high a score can be. You used to have a 'perfect 10,' but gymnastics can score in the teens (a score of 16 is considered pretty incredible FWIW, where as previously that '16' would've been a perfect 10 on the older sheets from five or six years ago).

The gymnastic judging is a pretty crazy comparison, since under their philosophy Blue Devils cold be score in the 100-teens range. It is kind of interesting in the sense that it combines both the build-up and the tick judging philosophies, and I wonder what scores would look like with sub-captions split in that way.

[perc2100]

Simple answer: choreography in the color guard...marching drill for the rest of the corps.

Yep: that was the "simple" answer in the early 90's (really, Star was doing body sculpting type choreography in 92, 93 seasons). DCI/marching arts are WELL beyond that simple answer a this point: your answer = 20 years late

[perc2100]

ok youre a drummer..heres a question..i work with drummers all the time and noone answers me, they just laugh. Back in the late 80s and 90s I remember many many many tapes saying the pit is visually in the way, the pit is way to loud,many tapes , every week..they even moved pits to the side, on the field etc et...well now we make them louder..lol..did i miss something?......lol

Yes. Front Ensemble arranging has changed significantly since the 80's and even 90's. Front Ensemble parts used to be commonly arranged as supporting elements to the brass books. Now-a-days the best arrangers/composers use front ensembles (and battery, for that matter) as secondary (really, more when you factor in the different voicings in the brass sections) melody. With that, the desire to hear them became higher, thus causing drum corps do get with their marching band & winter percussion ilk and mic the front ensembles.

I honestly think that so many older folks don't like amping pits because they're not used to hearing the pits all the time and thus think they are "too loud." FWIW I marched in the late 90's, when front ensembles were acoustic, but as a percussionist I totally understand the need for the front ensemble to be heard at all times. Even in the local marching band circuit I teach/judge in, there have been times when my group didn't win because the percussion judge said he couldn't hear my front ensemble enough to give them maximum credit.

[perc2100]

There will always be things people don't like, I agree.

I don't think any of the changes through the 70's or '80s had the impact that electronics have had.

Really?! Ground pits. Change from tick to build-up judge system. Those are two right off the top of my head that seem to be FAR great impacts on drum corps show designs (and judging) than electronics.

Electronics (like anything in the activity) could be done effectively or not effective. If you look at shows from 2002 - 2012 the only noticeable difference would be louder pits & electronics. But there's no way we'd have anything close to what is modern drum corps w/out grounded pits and build-up judging.

[gak27]

If you honestly believe that Blue Devils are not a well-exeuting and innovative show this year...

I have not seen them live, but have seen them online, and for large portions of the show it looks like each marching member is doing whatever he/she #### well pleases. Even if they are executing the crap out of their part, it looks sloppy and on the whole isn't very exciting.

[Grandpa]

I have not seen them live, but have seen them online, and for large portions of the show it looks like each marching member is doing whatever he/she #### well pleases. Even if they are executing the crap out of their part, it looks sloppy and on the whole isn't very exciting.

But that's how you use the sheets and rules to your advantage. I don't like the BD show but they have incredible performers and are playing the game smart.

The more I think about it, it's the sheets that have to change - again.

[perc2100]

Change is a constant - it's true....

BUT it's naive to say "change is good".

Good change is good.

Bad change is bad.

DCI has had some of both over the last few years. The trick is to hang on to the good change and have the integrity to toss the bad change, if we can come to a consensus on what changes fall into which camp.

While agree with this argument or the most part, I think one thing is also definitive:

zero change over decades is bad.

I _LOVE_ drum corps from the 70's & 80's. I love great drum corps from the 60's and 50's. But I would've parted ways with DCI decades ago if Anaheim Kingsmen's 1972 show was the same style of show in 2012. Heck, I likely never would've gotten involved in drum corps at all in the early 90's if that were the case.

Bad change is still bad, but no change is worse: I'll always at least appreciate an ambitious failure far more than a 'been there/done that' type of success. The way things are running right now, you can still see old school style drum corps at DCA: by your argument, we would have zero opportunity to see current DCI style drum corps anywhere. For that reason along (more variety in show design), I'll gladly take a unique failure over a rehashing of old school

[perc2100]

I have not seen them live, but have seen them online, and for large portions of the show it looks like each marching member is doing whatever he/she #### well pleases. Even if they are executing the crap out of their part, it looks sloppy and on the whole isn't very exciting.

I honestly believe that it takes incredible performers to make the difficult look easy.

And what appears to be "doing whatever the hell a member wants" is likely very well choreographed (for the most part) and executed.

And, of course, what you think looks sloppy & isn't exciting varies from person to person. I've heard a lot of criticism about BD's show design (and I'll never argue like/dislike opens), but sloppy execution is not one prevalent complaint. They're obviously doing well in performance captions (especially on the vis sheets, which I assume you're referencing in this conversation), so I would stipulate that you are missing a lot

[Grandpa]

While agree with this argument or the most part, I think one thing is also definitive:

zero change over decades is bad.

I _LOVE_ drum corps from the 70's & 80's. I love great drum corps from the 60's and 50's. But I would've parted ways with DCI decades ago if Anaheim Kingsmen's 1972 show was the same style of show in 2012. Heck, I likely never would've gotten involved in drum corps at all in the early 90's if that were the case.

Bad change is still bad, but no change is worse: I'll always at least appreciate an ambitious failure far more than a 'been there/done that' type of success. The way things are running right now, you can still see old school style drum corps at DCA: by your argument, we would have zero opportunity to see current DCI style drum corps anywhere. For that reason along (more variety in show design), I'll gladly take a unique failure over a rehashing of old school

I agree - which is why you may notice that earlier in the thread I said I love how the battery has evolved over the years. To me that came along in a natural curve. A lot of the other changes seem like they were forced along too quickly.

[gak27]

I honestly think that so many older folks don't like amping pits because they're not used to hearing the pits all the time and thus think they are "too loud."...

I think part of the problem is perception: most people/fans who are familiar with marimbas, xylophones, wind chimes, bongos, etc. know that they are naturally not loud. In order to make them more noticeable (and more and more, they are becoming prominent/primary), they sound unnaturally loud; it isn't what we are expecting when we hear them. Do I see the need for some amping? In general, yes. Way too often, though, it is too loud for a lot of people.