perc2100 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 You're begging the question. If the argument is that the judging somehow failed, you can't use the judging to support your argument. I'm personally not saying that the judging failed in anyway: kind of the contrary, actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbrassboy Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I'm honestly curious: what do the fans want? Do they want Carolina Crown to win 2012 DCI with a sub-Championship level Visual Program? Do they want a corps to win DCI that is not at clean as another corps?! I legitimately want to know what fans want. I assume people are not fans of Blue Devils 2012, and would rather not have that show win DCI. If that's the case, what's the next step? Telling designers what they can and can't do based on nothing other than super broad crowd appeal? Not rewarding a corps who marches near perfection and has a brilliantly coordinated show design because they don't get as big of a standing ovation as another corps?! I respectfully disagree. The show was not 'near perfection' by any means. Several guard drops and lots of photos to prove otherwise...(messy lines, etc.). Any corps can do whatever they want to do, but let's agree on what is actually 'difficult'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I respectfully disagree. The show was not 'near perfection' by any means. Several guard drops and lots of photos to prove otherwise...(messy lines, etc.). Any corps can do whatever they want to do, but let's agree on what is actually 'difficult'. Some people will never agree on what is difficult .... even when it's staring them in the face ... or should I say blurring by their face. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I respectfully disagree. The show was not 'near perfection' by any means. Several guard drops and lots of photos to prove otherwise...(messy lines, etc.). Any corps can do whatever they want to do, but let's agree on what is actually 'difficult'. But judging isn't about studying pictures and video: it's on-the-fly decision making. Besides, I didn't say Devs were perfect: "near perfection" by definition means there were mistakes. Heck, I've talked to the judge that gave Garfield a perfect score in 87, and he even said, they weren't perfect, but pretty darn close. I know Devs got several perfect scores on sheets, but I tend to look at that more like "they were x amount of points better than 2nd" not "wow, their guard performed flawlessly." Are you saying that Crown (or in captions where Crown was 3rd, Phantom) marched cleaner than Blue Devils? People can quibble over who had "harder" visual demands, but talking strictly performance I don't think anyone else was super close to Blue Devils in visual. Argue Crown was better in music in general (I would), argue other percussion sections were better, but there doesn't seem to be a huge consensus that Blue Devils were out-marched. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbrassboy Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 But judging isn't about studying pictures and video: it's on-the-fly decision making. Besides, I didn't say Devs were perfect: "near perfection" by definition means there were mistakes. Heck, I've talked to the judge that gave Garfield a perfect score in 87, and he even said, they weren't perfect, but pretty darn close. I know Devs got several perfect scores on sheets, but I tend to look at that more like "they were x amount of points better than 2nd" not "wow, their guard performed flawlessly." Are you saying that Crown (or in captions where Crown was 3rd, Phantom) marched cleaner than Blue Devils? People can quibble over who had "harder" visual demands, but talking strictly performance I don't think anyone else was super close to Blue Devils in visual. Argue Crown was better in music in general (I would), argue other percussion sections were better, but there doesn't seem to be a huge consensus that Blue Devils were out-marched. Very true, but I was with an ex-top six guard soloist alum who agreed that nothing was in unison throughout the show. Yes, I personally believe that both PR and CC out-marched BD...and even played at the same time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbrassboy Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Very true, but I was with an ex-top six guard soloist alum who agreed that nothing was in unison throughout the show. Yes, I personally believe that both PR and CC out-marched BD...and even played at the same time. Oh, and after aging out of PR after three years, I taught numerous marching band camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mn trumpter guy Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) But judging isn't about studying pictures and video: it's on-the-fly decision making. Besides, I didn't say Devs were perfect: "near perfection" by definition means there were mistakes. Heck, I've talked to the judge that gave Garfield a perfect score in 87, and he even said, they weren't perfect, but pretty darn close. I know Devs got several perfect scores on sheets, but I tend to look at that more like "they were x amount of points better than 2nd" not "wow, their guard performed flawlessly." Are you saying that Crown (or in captions where Crown was 3rd, Phantom) marched cleaner than Blue Devils? People can quibble over who had "harder" visual demands, but talking strictly performance I don't think anyone else was super close to Blue Devils in visual. Argue Crown was better in music in general (I would), argue other percussion sections were better, but there doesn't seem to be a huge consensus that Blue Devils were out-marched. Solely because the clarity between a clean and a dirty form was obvious in their shows, I would have to say that I was more impressed with CC's drill (and some-most of PR's) over BD's visual show- ignoring guard. I understand- I think- what BD was trying to do, but I don't know if I think they deserve credit for a clean form when that form has hints of scatter in it. EDIT ADDENDUM- On the other hand, CC's drill was very clearly dirty when it was dirty and vice-versa. I won't say 'demand' was higher, but exposure was much higher for CC, IMO. Edited August 13, 2012 by mn trumpter guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 But judging isn't about studying pictures and video: it's on-the-fly decision making. Besides, I didn't say Devs were perfect: "near perfection" by definition means there were mistakes. Heck, I've talked to the judge that gave Garfield a perfect score in 87, and he even said, they weren't perfect, but pretty darn close. I know Devs got several perfect scores on sheets, but I tend to look at that more like "they were x amount of points better than 2nd" not "wow, their guard performed flawlessly." Are you saying that Crown (or in captions where Crown was 3rd, Phantom) marched cleaner than Blue Devils? People can quibble over who had "harder" visual demands, but talking strictly performance I don't think anyone else was super close to Blue Devils in visual. Argue Crown was better in music in general (I would), argue other percussion sections were better, but there doesn't seem to be a huge consensus that Blue Devils were out-marched. The 10 situation is a big part of the problem. Going back to my scoring rant .... a 10, by definition, should mean perfect. If they had to give a 10 because they ran out of room or because they were .3 better than someone else and that led to a 10 .. then the metric for scoring needs to be rebalanced. That means training for judges. That should mean rolling back tapes and defining what is the standard. Who is at the top level .. what that score should be .. and then redefining what everyone else should be scoring ... that also means having a clearer definition of the box criteria (if they even use it ..... and it irks me to death that they don't). What if Crown's brass was truly .5 better than everyone else .. but only .3 was left to a 10 .. and that judge didn't have the guts to put a 10 on the sheet. Well there you have a few issues that need reconciling. 1. If they weren't perfect, they shouldn't get a 10. If they are .5 better than everyone else .. then everyone else is overscored ... if everyone else is overscored .. then the metric for the sheet criteria needs to be re-evaluated, standardized with all judges and move forward from there. All that said .. it would mean that judges would have to go thru training sessions throughout the season in order to keep in line with what's truly happening and not just throwing a number at the first corps that hits the field and +.1 from there on up. If BD's guard was truly a 9.7 .. but was .4 better than everyone else .. same said. All the other guards were overscored. Why doesn't that ever get fixed? And what if 5 guards are all worthy of a 9.5? I mean really worthy of that score according to a new metric of the sheets .... why don't they all get a 9.5? Because a judge has to "make a call". It's stupid. Give them the score they earned and let the chips call where they may. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersop Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Solely because the clarity between a clean and a dirty form was obvious in their shows, I would have to say that I was more impressed with CC's drill (and some-most of PR's) over BD's visual show- ignoring guard. I understand- I think- what BD was trying to do, but I don't know if I think they deserve credit for a clean form when that form has hints of scatter in it. EDIT ADDENDUM- On the other hand, CC's drill was very clearly dirty when it was dirty and vice-versa. I won't say 'demand' was higher, but exposure was much higher for CC, IMO. Demand and exposure was much higher. And part of CC's problem is that they OVERexpose themselves with all the endzone faced marching. They don't have a uniform posture .. which will always look dirty, especially in creme. Several corps, when performing that same task look much cleaner (BD, SCV, PR). Some corps NEVER do that for that very reason (Cadets, Coats, Madison). Even if the dots are clean and step sizes are uniform .. it still won't look clean due to the exposure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasgre2000 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 I don't have a horse in the fight .... so please stop assuming I'm "crying" because crown didn't win. We're talking about the system. A few problems I have with your statement. 1. SCV was one of the most traditional shows I've seen in 20 years. Not innovative. Riddle me that. 2. If every corps is out there to innovate and show you something new .... what you're bound to get is a bunch of the same. Less variety. In fact, that's been the M.O. of DCI for the past 10+ years ... "everyone looks and sounds the same", "Nobody has a real identity anymore" .. etc etc etc. Part of being traditional is having an identity. SCV found theirs again this year. Madison has found theirs again. BD and BK have new identities based on the shows they're doing. What scares ppl is that everyone will follow the leader .. and it's happening in small steps already. Everyone followed the cue of Cavies after 2000-2003 ... that homogenized the activity immensely. Some are following BD of 2008-2010 ... dub step, amped solo's, .... next is out of the box "drill" that is disjointed and non melodic in nature? No thanks. One corps doing it is enough. I don't want to see 24 doing it within 5 years. Visual is now all about staging and nothing to do with form, ebb and flow of movement, structure matching mood .... Crown is one of the worst offenders of this .. and it's due in large part to following the example of the early 2000's Cavies. You can do NEW and INNOVATIVE without changing the definition of M&M. Zingali and Brubaker proved it. Why is this so hard to understand? Were you complaining about "the system" when The Cadets won last year? I'm guessing you weren't (which kind of undermines your claim that this is about "the system" and not one particular show). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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