DCI's "Artistic Shift"

[jasgre2000]

I guess I'm going more off of content rather than the actual execution. My bad for that. Yes I'm pushing it by saying Surf was a 13th place contender in that respect .. but cmon ... was there many more enjoyable musical selections out there? They had demand, technical parts, great flow .... it was a winner .. AND they used a heavy amount of A&E for their closer and pre-show.

Again with Madison .. I'm talking content. Boston tends to get choppy in their arrangements .. Cavies very choppy .... BD (while better this year than in the past) is still choppy. Crown had one of the purest content shows I've heard in a long time and they executed it. SCV, I can say the same, but they need more power to match Crown and PR.

My old school thinking on how the numbers should be chopped up truly defines my logic on what placement would or could be if the system were different ... because with my line of thinking, the emphasis on visual would be far less and some of those shows listed would have less demand on the performer physically .. giving them a better opportunity to perform their "content" at a higher level.

I feel like I"m backpeddling here ... but I want to make sense and not just look like a dino.

This isn't meant to offend, but I find your argument very hard to understand. In one post you say that GE should not be weighted more than 20%, and then in the next you suggest that the design of the show should be the most important factor when determining placements. Isn't design going to impact GE more than anything else? The other captions are based on execution and skill. You seem to think execution captions are too important when determining where corps place in terms of score in one post, but then in the other you suggest we should give MORE weight to the execution/achievement captions than the design captions.

Am I the only one confused by this? What am I missing?

[supersop]

Were you complaining about "the system" when The Cadets won last year? I'm guessing you weren't (which kind of undermines your claim that this is about "the system" and not one particular show).

I've been complaining about the system on here for several years. Chill with the finger pointing. This isn't about the corps. Not for me anyway.

and yes ... I did complain.

Edited August 13, 2012 by supersop

[supersop]

This isn't meant to offend, but I find your argument very hard to understand. In one post you say that GE should not be weighted more than 20%, and then in the next you suggest that the design of the show should be the most important factor when determining placements. Isn't design going to impact GE more than anything else? The other captions are based on execution and skill. You seem to think execution captions are too important when determining where corps place in terms of score in one post, but then in the other you suggest we should give MORE weight to the execution/achievement captions than the design captions.

Am I the only one confused by this? What am I missing?

Content = design? I guess. But if you look closer at the actual sheets .. even on the execution captions .. the sub-captions include design elements. Maybe we're all confused because every single caption has design as part of the score .. even when it's an execution caption. There isn't a set standard for "required" content or "compulsory" content ... so what do we have to go off of? Excellence of design? Demand of content? Frequency of the demand? Conventional design vs. WGI design? And how is that weighted against the actual execution ... it's 50/50 in the execution captions.

The entire scoring system is a mess. I hope I do sound confused .. because we all should be confused.

I do believe that GE should not be more than 20% of the score .. as the captions and sub-captions are set up now. When you take the composition and design into account in all captions that are giving credit .. that's still nearly 25% of the score if GE were only 20% of total score. Crunch the numbers ... I'm sure I"m close after you divide everything.

As it stands now .. design is worth about 35% of the total score not including bleeding over of captions which brings it up to about 50%. Is it not? And if you listen to every judges tape .. composition, content, design, staging, etc etc etc is the majority of what's talked about. That's because the system is 60% visual .. and only the visual captions have Composition and content "written" as sub-captions. Add that to the GE captions which is another 20 pts for Design. No matter the caption .. design is taken into consideration. And that's what baffles me ...... if Content or Design is always talked about .... then what's the explanation for the 10's being given in design sub captions that aren't taking demand into consideration? .. and the lower numbers being given to corps that are execution driven just like our current champion? None of it's quantifiable. Even the Analysis (formerly known as ENSEMBLE) caption is also judging design. They changed the name to Analysis to give credence to adjudicating design as part of the caption.

So here's what needs to be clarified. Execution captions should be execution only. Period. If you want design being awarded .. it should be in the GE caption only. Analysis captions (aka Ensemble) should only be looking at how everything fits together and how that's executed .. not the design itself. If things were judged the way it was designed to work ... the results would be far different than what they are now. However, there's no accountability in DCI judging .. no transparency .... and definitely very little oversight.

And the thing that's funny .. at the end of the day we can all say that BD was clean as snot .... or close to it. They were. But in truth, that's not what's weighted in the judging system we have today. Not in the least. Where's the balance? Where's the explanation? Where's the accountability?

I can say the same for Cadets show last year .... I can say the same for just about every champion since 2008. I didn't agree with 05, 06 or 07 either. The end results do not match the criteria laid out on the judges sheets.

Design is heavily weighted

Demand is not

Visual is heavily weighted

Music is not

Execution is not

So the entire .. "clean wins" thing no longer works for me. It's all rank and rate and to heck with the sheets. That's easy to do when every judge has design and visual on the brain.

[jasgre2000]

I've been complaining about the system on here for several years. Chill with the finger pointing. This isn't about the corps. Not for me anyway.

But I am not asking about the last several years (most of which were years that a certain corps that happened to win this year also won). I am asking about last year. Did you complain about the system LAST year?

[supersop]

But I am not asking about the last several years (most of which were years that a certain corps that happened to win this year also won). I am asking about last year. Did you complain about the system LAST year?

YUP!

[jasgre2000]

Content = design? I guess. But if you look closer at the actual sheets .. even on the execution captions .. the sub-captions include design elements. Maybe we're all confused because every single caption has design as part of the score .. even when it's an execution caption. There isn't a set standard for "required" content or "compulsory" content ... so what do we have to go off of? Excellence of design? Demand of content? Frequency of the demand? Conventional design vs. WGI design? And how is that weighted against the actual execution ... it's 50/50 in the execution captions.

The entire scoring system is a mess. I hope I do sound confused .. because we all should be confused.

I do believe that GE should not be more than 20% of the score .. as the captions and sub-captions are set up now. When you take the composition and design into account in all captions that are giving credit .. that's still nearly 25% of the score if GE were only 20% of total score. Crunch the numbers ... I'm sure I"m close after you divide everything.

As it stands now .. design is worth about 35% of the total score not including bleeding over of captions which brings it up to about 50%. Is it not? And if you listen to every judges tape .. composition, content, design, staging, etc etc etc is the majority of what's talked about. That's because the system is 60% visual .. and only the visual captions have Composition and content "written" as sub-captions. Add that to the GE captions which is another 20 pts for Design. No matter the caption .. design is taken into consideration. And that's what baffles me ...... if Content or Design is always talked about .... then what's the explanation for the 10's being given in design sub captions that aren't taking demand into consideration? .. and the lower numbers being given to corps that are execution driven just like our current champion? None of it's quantifiable. Even the Analysis (formerly known as ENSEMBLE) caption is also judging design. They changed the name to Analysis to give credence to adjudicating design as part of the caption.

So here's what needs to be clarified. Execution captions should be execution only. Period. If you want design being awarded .. it should be in the GE caption only. Analysis captions (aka Ensemble) should only be looking at how everything fits together and how that's executed .. not the design itself. If things were judged the way it was designed to work ... the results would be far different than what they are now. However, there's no accountability in DCI judging .. no transparency .... and definitely very little oversight.

And the thing that's funny .. at the end of the day we can all say that BD was clean as snot .... or close to it. They were. But in truth, that's not what's weighted in the judging system we have today. Not in the least. Where's the balance? Where's the explanation? Where's the accountability?

I can say the same for Cadets show last year .... I can say the same for just about every champion since 2008. I didn't agree with 05, 06 or 07 either. The end results do not match the criteria laid out on the judges sheets.

Design is heavily weighted

Demand is not

Visual is heavily weighted

Music is not

Execution is not

So the entire .. "clean wins" thing no longer works for me. It's all rank and rate and to heck with the sheets. That's easy to do when every judge has design and visual on the brain.

You are complaining about execution not being heavily weighted? Now I am really confused. Didn't you just say Jersey should be 13th because of their show design (while admitting their execution was not great)? You seem to be contradicting yourself repeatedly. Its either that, or I am really dumb.

[jasgre2000]

YUP!

I would like to see some evidence of that (but I doubt I will get it).

[supersop]

I would like to see some evidence of that (but I doubt I will get it).

You've only been on this forum for 2 years ... go back and search it yourself. I'm very independent from any corps I ever marched with. I'm vocal about what's wrong with the system .. no matter who it favors or doesn't. If my former corps puts out a crap show and wins ... I call it crap plain and simple .. and I've never erased a post ... happy hunting.

[supersop]

You are complaining about execution not being heavily weighted? Now I am really confused. Didn't you just say Jersey should be 13th because of their show design (while admitting their execution was not great)? You seem to be contradicting yourself repeatedly. Its either that, or I am really dumb.

Heavily weighted and equally weighted are different things. The argument of Surf was based on MUSIC being weighted 60% (as I wish it were). There are several different thoughts going on here and you're trying to string them all together.

1. Convo about the system the way it is

2. Convo about the system the way it is and the way they're actually scoring it

3. Convo about how I think the system should be changed

Different contexts ... zero contradictions.

Edited August 13, 2012 by supersop

[Flguardman]

I can't believe some people just won't give these designers the respect that they need and deserve. Sure it's fine to have your likes and dislikes about corps and shows but these individuals are putting they're blood, sweat and tears into the products they give these fine students. People need to realize we are in a different time with new designers coming amongst us to help this activity grow, we are not the same people from the 70's, 80's and 90's. Each decade should be about having something new to bring to the table with some things from the past as well otherwise we would have the same shows every year.

I don't think enough praise and thanks have gone to those individuals and specially the students who work hard to bring you a product their proud of to you. Now it's more about bickering about who's not tradional or who's innovative or who's to innovative I don't understand it. Be happy to have a variety of corps and performances even if you don't care for them otherwise you'll just sit in the stands and think didn't I just see this show a minute ago. Let these corps find who they want to be in this time period whether it be going back to their roots or making a new Identity becuase you never know how long it will last.

It also makes me upset when people don't want to see WGI judges judge a Visual or GE caption, some people don't understand more than half the of the individuals who do wgi whether a Judge, Director, or Performer are also Musicians as well including myself. They're training is not just in the world of guard. Both DCI and WGI can learn a lot from each other. I really disagree with people thinking that the Wgi judges who judge Visual or GE captions shouldn't judge those and should just stick to guard because theirs a caption for that and they think thats all they look at anyways which is totally not true. Yes the guard helps in the Visual and GE captions but thats not the predominant thing they look at. They are a corps for a reason they are One a family not Individuals so they look at them as one! I commend these judges whether right or wrong because it's not easy being a judge as I am figuring that out with having started training in my local circuit. I think the biggest reward these students have is being able to perform and do something they love to do for fans and millions around the world.