An Open Letter to JulesBry and to those

[JimF-LowBari]

Not every corps is allowed to run bingo games...

My area of PA took two big hits in Bingo in the past decade or two.

1) Professional fundraisers doing "local" Bingo and raising prizes so much the smaller places were run out of business. Later legal issues (and trials) came up on how the profits were distributed.

2) PA now smoke free in public places. Amazing how many people would go to Bingo Halls to smoke for a while. When they went smoke free, the attendance went down.

Yeah, big differences from state to state. And didn't CA want to change their non-profit fund raising laws a few years back (or maybe it was Bingo laws). Anyone know if those laws went into effect. PA also has laws about how much a non-profit group can make during a week. Had some VFW and/or AL Posts get fined for making too much in their bar games (pull back lotto tickets, etc).

Edited August 16, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[glory]

I'm certainly looking forward to the announcement (or whatever form this news takes).

HH

[audiodb]

Let's start with governance. The corps directors are expected to make decisions for the betterment of DCI as a whole, making their own corps' best interest potentially secondary in their decision process. Considering human nature, it's reasonable to expect this model to blow up.

You see any alternative to that getting serious consideration? (Sorry, that question is really just a rhetorical one.)

The DCI 5 year plan is gone.

Well, it's not "gone". Perhaps it would be getting done right now, if not for all these other distractions. For example....

We hear, still, rumors that the G8 corps are still threatening to abandon ship.

You must mean the G7. There were never eight corps making that threat.

The only action that was different was the formation of the TOC shows. Did that feel like a long-lasting solution and, now that they are shown to be unprofitable, what would one suppose is the expected reaction by the G7 corps?

Before we breeze past this....where was it shown that the TOC shows are unprofitable?

We lost 4 corps this year. At least one couldn't make the schedule to Indy. The schedule breaks corps, big ones and little ones.

I think you flipped the numbers....by my count, we lost one corps and saw four not make it to Indy as scheduled (sorry, five....almost forgot Revo). Oh, and it's not the schedule that breaks corps, but rather, when corps break off more than they can chew.

What about the blanket admontition by the G8 that the executive leadership (and staff) of DCI is not capable of executing a plan of revival OR maintenance? That the major corps are fully capable of running the "business" of DCI better than the executive they voted into office all those years ago? Does that suggest a strong, united, viable activity to you? Is Dan A. and his staff capable? Is it fair for a corps to run a ticketing program in direct competiton to DCI, when that corps, as a member of DCI, is signed on as demanding more money from DCI at the expense of other corps?

Does this sound like a structure that is healthy, thriving, growing, and spreading the activity to an active fan base?

The current actions to solve the problem were visible to any fan who chooses to be involved more deeply. I understand many fans don't care or don't want to be bothered as long as ticket prices aren't too high. But for some of us fans who dig a little deeper, the true state of DCI's structure is not hard to classify as a mess.

What's happening now is the necessary first step to finding out if the activity has a future at all and, as I said earlier, I'm more optimistic now than I've been in a long time that there are serious minds addressing these issues. Maybe not singing Kumbaya yet, but they are talking and working and hammering out a way forward.

Wow. I'd hate to see the state of affairs when you are pessimistic.

[ShortAndFast]

Before we breeze past this....where was it shown that the TOC shows are unprofitable?

I also doubt that TOC is unprofitable. Driving everybody to Texas in June 2011 was obvious fiscal madness, but by all accounts attendance was good at TOC shows this year and, aside from East Rutherford, they were held in less expensive venues.

The real question is whether TOC has provided sufficient additional $$ to the G7 to satisfy their complaints from 2010.

[garfield]

You see any alternative to that getting serious consideration? (Sorry, that question is really just a rhetorical one.)

Well, I see this as the best opportunity for change that's been presented in a lot of years. I think a "6 & 3" proposal has been discussed; 6 outside BOD members and 3 corps directors. I can't say how "serious" those discussions were.

Well, it's not "gone". Perhaps it would be getting done right now, if not for all these other distractions. For example....

You must mean the G7. There were never eight corps making that threat.

Yes, the TOC is 8. Thanks for the reminder, and I wonder if it's now actually even seven.

Before we breeze past this....where was it shown that the TOC shows are unprofitable?

I'm not going to point you to it so you'll have to search like I did. But it comes directly from the minutes of corps board meeting. "The TOC was unprofitable at every venue..."

There's also been feedback from fans that indicates that the "extras" that the TOC offered did little, if anything, to draw crowds to the shows. It was cool content for the people who were coming anyway, but the "total show" concept was either never fully implemented or it failed to draw the new crowd anticipated.

I think you flipped the numbers....by my count, we lost one corps and saw four not make it to Indy as scheduled (sorry, five....almost forgot Revo). Oh, and it's not the schedule that breaks corps, but rather, when corps break off more than they can chew.

Wow. I'd hate to see the state of affairs when you are pessimistic.

I'd never seen that state of affairs before and the last example was 1972.

Again, I knew there was never any resolution to issues that the G7 raised - the real, core issues - except for the TOC experiment. Worse, the rift between the corps was never addressed and the directors of both camps were not talking to one another. That's when I was pessimistic. Now, they are talking, negotiating, drafting, building, and attempting to reach a plan forward that everyone can agree with. That's why I'm optimistic, finally.

[brians]

Yes, the TOC is 8. Thanks for the reminder, and I wonder if it's now actually even seven.

Yes it still is 7, I saw all 7 of them (directors of these 7 corps or a represenative) have a meeting at the Omni hotel lobby bar area for about an hour around 10-11am on the Friday morning of finals week. Looked to be quite an animated conversation. No one but these 7 were at the meeting. A friend of mine has a picture to prove it.

[Big Bad Bari]

Yes it still is 7, I saw all 7 of them (directors of these 7 corps or a represenative) have a meeting at the Omni hotel lobby bar area for about an hour around 10-11am on the Friday morning of finals week. Looked to be quite an animated conversation. No one but these 7 were at the meeting. A friend of mine has a picture to prove it.

Oh my god! No not all 7 of them in the same room talking when they were all in town together... Oh my stars no!

[audiodb]

Well, I see this as the best opportunity for change that's been presented in a lot of years. I think a "6 & 3" proposal has been discussed; 6 outside BOD members and 3 corps directors. I can't say how "serious" those discussions were.

Probably not very. AFAIK, there is nothing on the table that reduces the proportion of inmates that would be running their own asylum.

I'm not going to point you to it so you'll have to search like I did. But it comes directly from the minutes of corps board meeting. "The TOC was unprofitable at every venue..."

I am finding this difficult to believe. Every venue?

Is this for 2011, or 2012?

Do you realize what this means? I know PR and Crown sold out their TOC shows in 2011, and I'm fairly certain Rockford sold out again this year. If even a sellout loses money, there is no way the business model could possibly work. That's why I'm having trouble believing it....who would be that stupid to run a show that is guaranteed to lose money?

Again, I knew there was never any resolution to issues that the G7 raised - the real, core issues - except for the TOC experiment. Worse, the rift between the corps was never addressed and the directors of both camps were not talking to one another. That's when I was pessimistic. Now, they are talking, negotiating, drafting, building, and attempting to reach a plan forward that everyone can agree with. That's why I'm optimistic, finally.

How do you know they're talking? Specifically, are G7 directors and 9-23 directors talking with one another....or is someone else doing all the talking?

[garfield]

Probably not very. AFAIK, there is nothing on the table that reduces the proportion of inmates that would be running their own asylum.

I am finding this difficult to believe. Every venue?

Is this for 2011, or 2012?

Do you realize what this means? I know PR and Crown sold out their TOC shows in 2011, and I'm fairly certain Rockford sold out again this year. If even a sellout loses money, there is no way the business model could possibly work. That's why I'm having trouble believing it....who would be that stupid to run a show that is guaranteed to lose money?

How do you know they're talking? Specifically, are G7 directors and 9-23 directors talking with one another....or is someone else doing all the talking?

I think you'd be surprised how frequently this subject is discussed. Yes, I'm sure there are directors who are protecting their territory. But I also know of directors who clearly understand the inherent problems with the foxes guarding the the henhouse.

As to the TOC, I only know what I read with my own eyes. I can't address why they rationalize a series that loses money. But I also think it's reasonable that the TOC is a new series and that new things take time to develop. It's possible that they believe running TOC as a loss leader until it does become profitable makes sense. I can't speak to how the G7 directors view it.

I know they're talking because I have it first-hand from those involved. Yes, there are those whose voices are a little bolder than others, and yes, there are leaders and there are followers. But my sense is that the plan that's being developed is for the benefit of the activity as a whole and for the corps that are not G7 corps as well as those that are.

Whatever they decide, as long as I sense that they're acting in the best interest of all, I'm on board and supportive of the effort even if I may not agree with all that they decide.

And let's not forget that this year is a re-election year for Dan A. My understanding is that he's deeply involved in the crafting of a path forward that every corps director can support.

[skywhopper]

Do you realize what this means? I know PR and Crown sold out their TOC shows in 2011, and I'm fairly certain Rockford sold out again this year. If even a sellout loses money, there is no way the business model could possibly work. That's why I'm having trouble believing it....who would be that stupid to run a show that is guaranteed to lose money?

I had speculated that perhaps DCI made itself show organizer and took the loss for these shows, but NightBEAT is still on Crown's 990 for 2011, so maybe not.

My theory on this is that the G7 corps wanted bigger performance fees to stick around in World Class. As a compromise, the TOC was organized, and since these were not "normal" shows, the invitees could be promised larger performance fees, much larger. Large enough to make up for 20-25 shows at the standard WC fee rate. Large enough to eat up all the revenue and more from all the shows. But if the shows are organized by the corps and DCI, it all works out in the end. Crown and PR may have lost money on NightBEAT and Show of Shows, but they made it back plus some in the bonus performance fees. Maybe they got bigger fees in exchange for losing money.

The doc garfield's referring to, btw, is just re 2011. It's possible things were changed for this year, but I expect the structure is similar.