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"Pushing the Boundaries of Innovation" vs "Tradition"


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I thought the origin of this thread was more based on what types of equipment would be legal...from a new division with anything (like MB today) to a 'traditional' division, whatever that means...hence my post about trying to define what a 'traditional division might be....esp here in DCP. kind of like herding cats.

MHO is that a traditional division would be the current WC division, with the new one having no limits on instruments or size at all.

Actually the origin of the thread was setting up a way that judges traditional aspects of a corps along side innovative aspect. Both having equal value to promote growth in the activity (not division)

I never wanted to divide into division - Because that is something would never work. Creating a balanced judging sheet that clearly divides certain aspects of the activity would work.

As for EQUIPMENT... anything would go. simple as that. G bugles could compete next to Bb corps. G bugles get a point on the traditional side - Bb a point on the inno side. (go down the line and make it a black and white system)

I do not use the term AVANTE GUARDE (and it is avant-guarde) because it reminds me of the Super Sounds of the Seventies. Herb Lubalin designed the "out of date" typeface called Avant-Guarde in the late 60s a magazine called Avant-Guarde. A magazine about art and design. It is no longer new but OLD. Avant-Guarde is very TRADITIONAL to me. Find a better term because that is stuck in the past. Yes, I know the definition. That definition made it a great title 40 some odd years ago.

Edited by Kevin Powell
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But DCI is the corps...the model is not as it was in the VFW days where the VFW set up their rules and the corps had to follow them, or not compete in VFW-sponsored shows.

The corps are not 'spolied brats'...they create the competitive environment that they want their members to compete under. DCI is not some outside separate organization that can impose rules on their members. The corps staffs and admins create the environment they want to compete under in a democratic manner, by voting on proposals during their winter meetings. It took a long time for A&E to be legalized because the majority votes of the corps directors and outside board members were not there for years, even though many of the instructors had wanted those things forever. I like it this way. When enough of the voting board agrees that 'X' is desirable, it will pass, and not until then.

I guess certain Directors make them seem like spoiled brats. Those directors that tend to get their way if they complain long enough or loud enough.

I respect what you say.

Maybe, this is a the system that is broken and why about 50% of the folks are not fans of the "NEW". Corps directors are making decisions for themselves and not letting well developed "Focus Groups" make some of these decisions.

The directors are making uninformed decisions about what we like.

Edited by Kevin Powell
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I guess certain Directors make them seem like spoiled brats. Those directors that tend to get their way if they complain long enough or loud enough.

Well...don't forget, that in the case of the elements like A&E, the corps staffs had wanted them for a long time before they were made legal. I don't see it as a case of a director...or directors...getting his/their way due to complaining...I see it as corps admins on the board finally agreeing that element 'X' should be included, and voting for it in sufficient numbers to pass. I don't think the corps directors are that weak on a personal level to just bow to another director...these are high-powered and bright people to be at that level of the activity. I CAN see them listening to their staffs, however.

That is why, IMO, elements like WW are quite far away, if ever. There is little if any instructor support for them, let alone a majority of directors.

I respect what you say.

Ditto...agree or not, we should respect what each of us contribute to the discussion.

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Concerning my post on page on page 1 yesterday, I was just informed that OP means Original Poster and not Post. (Oops!) I meant to refer only to the intelligence of the idea and not the person, and did not mean it to be a personal attack of any sort. Sorry if it was interpteted that way. (Feel free to remove some of the 10 million minuses I got if you wish).

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Concerning my post on page on page 1 yesterday, I was just informed that OP means Original Poster and not Post. (Oops!) I meant to refer only to the intelligence of the idea and not the person, and did not mean it to be a personal attack of any sort. Sorry if it was interpteted that way. (Feel free to remove some of the 10 million minuses I got if you wish).

it was fine with me. I did not take it as a slam on me and understand your stance on the idea.

You could have chose better words no matter if you were slamming me or the POST. That was where you got the negative hits. I did not -1 you.

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Well...don't forget, that in the case of the elements like A&E, the corps staffs had wanted them for a long time before they were made legal. I don't see it as a case of a director...or directors...getting his/their way due to complaining...I see it as corps admins on the board finally agreeing that element 'X' should be included, and voting for it in sufficient numbers to pass. I don't think the corps directors are that weak on a personal level to just bow to another director...these are high-powered and bright people to be at that level of the activity. I CAN see them listening to their staffs, however.

That is why, IMO, elements like WW are quite far away, if ever. There is little if any instructor support for them, let alone a majority of directors.

Ditto...agree or not, we should respect what each of us contribute to the discussion.

I go back to that "painters analogy". I would like to see some corps rewarded for exploring "BACKWARDS" in time. Rewarded for using "LESS" colors on the palette or using tools from the past.

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And for the many who love the electronics. There are multi-time BOA grand champions who will not go back to BOA due to the synths and amplification.

That is also a problem.

Edited by Kevin Powell
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I never wanted to divide into division - Because that is something would never work.

World Class Division. Open Class Division. Do these ring a bell ?

At one time DCI actually had 3 Divisions... a third Division for the " All Girl's Division ".

DCA currently has multiple Corps Divisions consisting of DCA Corps memberships in competition in Open Class and Class A... they also have a 3rd ad hoc unafiliated division, ie an Exhibition Corps Division they annually allow to perform at their Championships.

Maybe a DCI Traditional Division and an Avart Garde Division could never work now ( might have if started in early decades, imo ) but we can't say it won't work because " dividing into a division is something that would never work " as we have Divisions already in place that have worked well for decades and where the judging criteria and the approaches to Drum Corps are vastly different among the various CURRENT Divisions that are already in place in the Drum Corps activity.

Edited by BRASSO
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World Class Division. Open Class Division. Do these ring a bell ?

At one time DCI actually had 3 Divisions... a third Division for the " All Girl's Division ".

DCA currently has multiple Corps Divisions consisting of DCA Corps memberships in competition in Open Class and Class A... they also have a 3rd ad hoc unafiliated division, ie an Exhibition Corps Division they annually allow to perform at their Championships.

Maybe a DCI Traditional Division and an Avart Garde Division could never work now ( might have if started in early decades, imo ) but we can't say it won't work because " dividing into a division is something that would never work " as we have Divisions already in place that have worked well for decades and where the judging criteria and the approaches to Drum Corps are vastly different among the various CURRENT Divisions that are already in place in the Drum Corps activity.

Those division do not directly compete against each other. That is the flaw.

Say Madison went traditional - they would still want to compete against Blue Devils.

OR... ARE YOU SAY OREGON CRUSADERS BEAT THE CADETS and are 5th place?

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I don't think the corps directors are that weak on a personal level to just bow to another director..

.

Agree with you on this point, Mike....(as George H. and David G. quickly learned 2 years ago)

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