"Pushing the Boundaries of Innovation" vs "Tradition"

[jasgre2000]

I think the idea of two separate divisions based on traditional and "anything goes" would fail miserably. No one would sign up for the restrictions of the traditional division.

How about a slightly different proposal that achieves the same purpose, but would be more effective. In figure skating, the competitors have to perform two programs. The first is a "short" program where they have to complete a list of required maneuvers. The second is a "long" program, or a "free" program where they have a lot more freedom in designing their show.

Why not require each WC corps to perform two programs. The first would be a little bit shorter (to keep the rehearsal requirements manageable), and would have a list of traditional requirements that must be followed (no dancing, no electronics, etc.). The second would be anything goes (but the corps would still be judged mainly on their movement on the field and the music they produce on the field).

That way, we can preserve the tradition (and allow the dinos to have shows they like ... they can skip the other half), and foster innovation and creativity.

[GUARDLING]

I think the idea of two separate divisions based on traditional and "anything goes" would fail miserably. No one would sign up for the restrictions of the traditional division.

How about a slightly different proposal that achieves the same purpose, but would be more effective. In figure skating, the competitors have to perform two programs. The first is a "short" program where they have to complete a list of required maneuvers. The second is a "long" program, or a "free" program where they have a lot more freedom in designing their show.

Why not require each WC corps to perform two programs. The first would be a little bit shorter (to keep the rehearsal requirements manageable), and would have a list of traditional requirements that must be followed (no dancing, no electronics, etc.). The second would be anything goes (but the corps would still be judged mainly on their movement on the field and the music they produce on the field).

That way, we can preserve the tradition (and allow the dinos to have shows they like ... they can skip the other half), and foster innovation and creativity.

if i remember correctly..at one point before DCI was formed prelims shows were a shortened version....cant remember how that worked Im sure some here might remember..I tend to forget yesterday

Edited August 16, 2012 by GUARDLING

[jasgre2000]

The same guy I think it is?

Part of the problem might be that electronics are danced around on the sheets, IIRC, Jeff. They seem to be avoided there.

Another issue. Who gets to jump in and give the corps the pimp hand when it's poor and in what captions? Accusations could fly that "YOU'RE JUDGING OUT OF CAPTION!!!!!" You know the game. You know many people like to stick the index finger out like a pistol and yell that when they can.

Yet another issue. You may have the argument "Oh, come on, Jeff, You've dumped us over something electronic involving one person or a very few people running it and it's such a teeny-tiny facet of out most wonderful program and you penalized the whole corps of kind, sweet, deserving, hard working young people! It's just one teeny tiny eensy beensy failure! Why take it out on us!? You got something against us!?"

Have I sat in on too many critiques on both sides of the table or not?

I think that might be why people are avoiding it, Jeff. They want to avoid the acrimony after the contest over it. It may not be worth it to them. Just kinda thinkin' here about it is all.

I don't know why it is so hard to figure out. Electronics should ONLY be judged in the GE category. It should not be judged as part of the other music categories (unless someone is actually playing an electronic instrument on the field that takes some skill). If the electronics are used poorly, then it detracts from the GE, doesn't it? What am I missing? This seems pretty straight forward.

[BigW]

I don't know why it is so hard to figure out. Electronics should ONLY be judged in the GE category. It should not be judged as part of the other music categories (unless someone is actually playing an electronic instrument on the field that takes some skill). If the electronics are used poorly, then it detracts from the GE, doesn't it? What am I missing? This seems pretty straight forward.

Loaded question- what happens when the keyboards are simulating Low Brass (a common thing in DCI right now) and they go out of balance?? My guess is the ensemble music judge can speak up. What if they break up or get buzzy or staticy?? is that a performance issue?

Another loaded question...What if the elecrtronic instrument is a digital xylophone or percussion instrument/used as a percussive timbre?

Yet another question: what if a sampled sound effect causes balance problems with the music ensemble? Can the ensemble music judge discuss it since it disturbs the ovaerll balance of the ensemble/total sound projected to the box, or should they ignore it?

Please understand something. I have no idea what the DCI adjudicators are clinced to do or not to do. When there are serious questions about scoring or evaluating, the judge in any circuit will (at least SHOULD) refer to the sheet/placemat and read it carefully to remind them of priorities and what they can and should do or not do. IIRC, those sheets are fairly nebulous about how to handle electronics.

You could be correct. I could be more correct, or the correct answer is in a gray area between us. I don't know. I could care less who is right or wrong- but I'd like to know a proper and definite answer.

[jasgre2000]

Loaded question- what happens when the keyboards are simulating Low Brass (a common thing in DCI right now) and they go out of balance?? My guess is the ensemble music judge can speak up. What if they break up or get buzzy or staticy?? is that a performance issue?

Another loaded question...What if the elecrtronic instrument is a digital xylophone or percussion instrument/used as a percussive timbre?

Yet another question: what if a sampled sound effect causes balance problems with the music ensemble? Can the ensemble music judge discuss it since it disturbs the ovaerll balance of the ensemble/total sound projected to the box, or should they ignore it?

Please understand something. I have no idea what the DCI adjudicators are clinced to do or not to do. When there are serious questions about scoring or evaluating, the judge in any circuit will (at least SHOULD) refer to the sheet/placemat and read it carefully to remind them of priorities and what they can and should do or not do. IIRC, those sheets are fairly nebulous about how to handle electronics.

You could be correct. I could be more correct, or the correct answer is in a gray area between us. I don't know. I could care less who is right or wrong- but I'd like to know a proper and definite answer.

I don't know how exactly it is judged either, but in my opinion ... the music categories (including the ensemble categories) are judging a skill, rather than an effect. It doesn't take any skill (at least no skill that should be given credit by DCI judges) to simulate the low brass with a synth.

[Kevin Powell]

I don't know why it is so hard to figure out. Electronics should ONLY be judged in the GE category. It should not be judged as part of the other music categories (unless someone is actually playing an electronic instrument on the field that takes some skill). If the electronics are used poorly, then it detracts from the GE, doesn't it? What am I missing? This seems pretty straight forward.

BECAUSE... no one can define GE.

seems straight forward but it is broken somewhere.

[MikeD]

I don't know why it is so hard to figure out. Electronics should ONLY be judged in the GE category. It should not be judged as part of the other music categories (unless someone is actually playing an electronic instrument on the field that takes some skill). If the electronics are used poorly, then it detracts from the GE, doesn't it? What am I missing? This seems pretty straight forward.

Music ensemble would include any electronic instruments as part of the evaluation of the overall music presentation.

[gak27]

if i remember correctly..at one point before DCI was formed prelims shows were a shortened version....cant remember how that worked Im sure some here might remember..I tend to forget yesterday

Jumping in the Way Back Machine...the shows were shortened by skipping the concert number.

[MikeD]

Jumping in the Way Back Machine...the shows were shortened by skipping the concert number.

Plus some tweaks to the drill as needed...and also, under VFW rules a corps could not stop at all.

[Kevin Powell]

I am taking about three steps back on this and looking at everything.

These statements might ruffle more feathers but let's look at this with an open mind.

I made the first statement I made was to basically remove any creative restrictions.

1. the limitation are an issue - so get rid of the issue
   
2. I said this because they have only gone part way - why not just go for it?
   
3. I also believe that corps are one sighted only looking toward innovation - there needs to be a way to foster looking back on tradition
   
4. The Drum and Bugle Corps that many people fell in love with no longer exist.
   
5. How do you find a way that preserves the old and promotes the new.
   

There has been talk about divisions: "Traditional" and "Innovative"

1. I personally believe both aspects can be judged on the same sheet - not divided into categories
   
2. Divisions could actually fracture DCI more than it is now
   
3. Now Added to this has been talk about a "traditional" show segment or short show
   

For the sake of discussion I am putting a little "design thinking" philosophy

1. the end purpose of any type of "DESIGN" is "FUNCTION"
   
2. FUNCTION basically defines END GOAL - A Reason [/i]
   
   • The end FUNCTION of shows has not been WELL defined
     Is it ART?
     Is it FUN?
     Is it EDUCATIONAL?
     Is it OLD?
     Is it NEW?
     Is it ENTERTAINING?
     Is it SELLING TICKETS?
     Is it ALUMNI?
     

[*]Can multiple FUNCTIONs exist together in this competitive environmet?

[*]Is this FUNCTION being decided at the correct level?

• DCI Decision?
  
• Judges Decision?
  
• The Corps Decision
  

My controversial list.

1. It is human tendency to credit extremes.
   
2. Higher, faster, louder is easier to judge than Slow and Controlled.
   (There is definitely an art to slow and controlled.)
   
3. Corps are scared of not using ALL the tools given to them. They feel they will be penalized.
   
4. Corps are not encouraged to think backwards. ALL SOLUTIONS should be POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS
   
5. A Truly Balanced "GREAT" show
   A true work of art
   could not be judged fairly because of the requirements of velocity, challenging runs and so on...
   Great ART is not all about TECHNICALITY. BUT how do you judge soul and control?
   
6. It is a proven fact that "Design by committee" does not work while "design by focus group" creates ultimate designs. The present nightly judging system is the ultimate display of "design by committee". How could this system be changed to help the show designers actually design for the end audience and not for a select judge.
   I will explain design by committee a little better. In a design by committee, designers use individual (not stakeholders) criticism at multiple touch points in the process to alter and change their work. Many times, all these criticism contradict themselves to create end issues within the design. ON THE OTHER HAND... design by focus group, presents the design to the end users (true stakeholders) and the overall critique of all the users is used to alter and create a more effective end product.