What does BDs’ victory really mean?

[bchorn]

I'm not sure the gymnastics scoring system can ever parallel what we do in drum corps. Drum corps is just too complicated. You can't set a difficulty factor for each component the way you can for a double this or a backward that with a twist. Also, in gymnastics, several judges evaluate a single gymnast. It's far easier for them to parse the elements of execution than it would be were they to judge 150 brass, drums and guard over as much as 100 yards.

HH

I agree. There would have to be a difficulty component somehow built into the overall score. Maybe that difficulty component is built into each score given by the judge or maybe it's just a separate score given all together for the overall show.

[perc2100]

You can't set a difficulty factor for each component the way you can for a double this or a backward that with a twist.

Exactly!

Not to mention, great corps make difficult look easy.

Also, in our activity, "degree of difficulty" of a program is not as important as effectiveness of a program. A visual design, for example, can be written extremely hard but not as effective as an "easier" design. I think a lot of people misconstrue difficult with effective: I've seen plenty of difficult drill designs that were a mess (though hard to execute), and relatively easy drill designs that were incredibly effective. I don't want to see "hard but dirty & not effective," and instead want to see "effective and clean."

And obviously cleaner execution makes for a more effective program

[BRASSO]

And in 1970, it was a very controversial song, and extremely controversial show. Huh, guess it's not just George Hopkins doing controversy. Always loved the Cadets, even during their mis-2000s stretch

Things have naturally changed in Drum Corps since 1970. In 2012, the most " different " show on the field this year... by far, hands down... was the show from that of Jersey Surf. This style was completely unlike what any any other Corps did this season. No other Corps did a show that was geared totally to a comedic relief theme. I wouldn't want all shows to be comedic relief, but it was refreshing to have a show that took this " different " approach this season. The crowds favorable response does demonstrate that audiences will respond to shows that are totally " different " from all the others provided it is done in an appealing way for them. Thats why it was refreshing to see " different " rewarded with our sometimes jaded view in audiences ability to enjoy something " different " new become restored. It was good all around.

Edited August 22, 2012 by BRASSO

[mn trumpter guy]

Not to mention, great corps make difficult look easy.

But we still have to recognize the difficulty- even if it doesn't look difficult. Nothing the people in "Blast!" did was made to look difficult by them- but it still was.

Also, in our activity, "degree of difficulty" of a program is not as important as effectiveness of a program.

I'm with you... but I don't think we can discount 'degree of difficulty' completely- I don't want to watch people perform something that is effective but easy. I want to be impressed not only by the effect, but by the difficulty. I don't want to see "hard but dirty & not effective," and instead want to see "effective and clean."

obviously cleaner execution makes for a more effective program

Eh... not so fast. I don't care how clean it is: 8 to 5 across a field playing "Cross Hot Buns" is not nearly as effective as dirtier 4 to 5 across the field playing "Festive Overture."

I know you probably don't mean that- you probably mean that a show dirty is less effective than the same show, but clean. Just wanted to make sure.

EDIT: for spelling.

Edited August 22, 2012 by mn trumpter guy

[Pete Freedman]

Great discussion.

It's not all that different than gymnastics, actually. If the judges could follow just one corps member at a time all the way through the show, they could indeed switch to that kind of judging system (GE comments on this below), but they can't because there are too many people on the field all at once. The present system approximates the same effect considering all of the performers together. It's still basically about degree of difficulty and execution.

Now, about GE. How does GE become degree of difficulty and execution? A corps doing basics box for 11 minutes could score high on execution, but low on GE. This is NOT BECAUSE it would be boring. This is key; it would be because the show wouldn't be artistic. It wouldn't express anything. The difference between exciting and 'merely' artistic is (arguably) the difference between Crown and BD this year. BD's show was artistic and expressive, it just wasn't accessible to the audience. The GE judges have to consider how difficult the artistic ideas are to express, and how well the corps expresses them. That still comes down to degree of difficulty and execution.

Now, I didn't get the artistic ideas of BD's show, but the judges must have understood it because BD won. This reminds me; aren't there meetings the instructors have with the judges before the show? If so, this gives the judges a leg up on the audience in terms of understanding the artistic intent, and could explain this whole problem. The judges know in advance what the corps is trying to express.

[flammaster]

But we still have to recognize the difficulty- even if it doesn't look difficult. Nothing the people in "Blast!" did was made to look difficult by them- but it still was.

I'm with you... but I don't think we can discount 'degree of difficulty' completely- I don't want to watch people perform something that is effective but easy. I want to be impressed not only by the effect, but by the difficulty. I don't want to see "hard but dirty & not effective," and instead want to see "effective and clean."

Eh... not so fast. I don't care how clean it is: 8 to 5 across a field playing "Cross Hot Buns" is not nearly as effective as dirtier 4 to 5 across the field playing "Festive Overture."

I know you probably don't mean that- you probably mean that a show dirty is less effective than the same show, but clean. Just wanted to make sure.

EDIT: for spelling.

Jingle bells vs. bird and bella in b flat. no comparison!

[mn trumpter guy]

Great discussion.

It's not all that different than gymnastics, actually. If the judges could follow just one corps member at a time all the way through the show, they could indeed switch to that kind of judging system (GE comments on this below), but they can't because there are too many people on the field all at once. The present system approximates the same effect considering all of the performers together. It's still basically about degree of difficulty and execution.

Now, about GE. How does GE become degree of difficulty and execution? A corps doing basics box for 11 minutes could score high on execution, but low on GE. This is NOT BECAUSE it would be boring. This is key; it would be because the show wouldn't be artistic. It wouldn't express anything. The difference between exciting and 'merely' artistic is (arguably) the difference between Crown and BD this year. BD's show was artistic and expressive, it just wasn't accessible to the audience. The GE judges have to consider how difficult the artistic ideas are to express, and how well the corps expresses them. That still comes down to degree of difficulty and execution.

Now, I didn't get the artistic ideas of BD's show, but the judges must have understood it because BD won. This reminds me; aren't there meetings the instructors have with the judges before the show? If so, this gives the judges a leg up on the audience in terms of understanding the artistic intent, and could explain this whole problem. The judges know in advance what the corps is trying to express.

I understand what you are saying- and agree.

But I don't know anyone who has been able to explain to me the "artistic ideas" in BD's show this year.

I forget who, but someone on DCP stated: "The emperor is naked." Do the judges truly understand what BD is doing? Or are they assuming there is a good reason behind it because they are who they are?

I honestly don't know- this was actually the first BD show in a long time that I could watch without shaking my head in frustration; I just am curious as to if BD is getting benefit of the doubt that other corps don't have. Which sounds more accusatory than I mean to be, but I don't know how else to phrase it.

[Pete Freedman]

It is a weird show. I only saw it on youtube and in the theaters for quarterfinals. I don't have access to the DCI website videos (not until payday, anyway) so I can't say for sure. But here's BD's own description:

http://bluedevils.or.../repertoire.php

From this description and my recollection of the show itself, I think they are doing a combination of odd modern jazz pieces that drum corps hasn't really done much before, with quirky and seemingly out-of-place visuals. I find the concept ok, I just didn't like the lectur-ey french-esque (frenchish?) descriptions on the audio track. Wouldn't quirky out of place audio clips have been more dada?

"Tranquility base here; the Eagle has landed" (the actual recording if possible)

"It's a twister! It's a twister!"

"I don't get this Blue Devil Dada show - It's stoooopiiid!"

"Frankly my dear, I do give a #### after all. In fact I'll give two damns and a hoot."

Or criticisms of Dada. Carl Jung said "It's too idiotic to be schizophrenic." That would have been awesome, actually.

That kind of thing. Anyway, I can't really criticize it too much having only seen it once really, and I don't know much about dada except from Wikipedia, which as we know is never wrong.

[breezemont]

"Tranquility base here; the Eagle has landed" (the actual recording if possible)

"It's a twister! It's a twister!"

"I don't get this Blue Devil Dada show - It's stoooopiiid!"

"Frankly my dear, I do give a #### after all. In fact I'll give two damns and a hoot."

Or criticisms of Dada. Carl Jung said "It's too idiotic to be schizophrenic." That would have been awesome, actually.

"Did you pack enough underwear?"

To me, what Surf did with that opening "narrative" was to totally spoof all those other silly pretentious "narratives" that must be necessary because, well, it wins. I don't know if it was their intention, but it made me laugh and then when I heard all the other voiceovers after that I couldn't help but think "Have fun with your band at the corps thing".

Edited August 23, 2012 by breezemont

[Mr. D. from da 313]

From a fan standpoint, I would say that's highly debatable which wasn't the case last year.

To the people who judge these contests they were the best this year. Putting it all into perspective, you win by being the best. They were the best