What does BDs’ victory really mean?

[Jeff Ream]

TRUTH! Ream just won teh DCP'zzzzzzzzzz.

Seriously, I totally agree with you Jeff. That's why I hate the GE caption the way it currently stands. You'll never EVER get 2 judges to completely agree or score the sub captions of GE the same .... taking into account the full description and requirements of that subcaption and scoring it properly. It just doesn't happen.

no two judges should ever fully agree IMO. that comes off as collusion.

but the problem is effect is judged if you se anyof the triad, when really, you should see all of it to be truly effective

[skywhopper]

I think everything you say is fair.

I just think it's true of any corps that has a reasonable chance at the championship/has one before. (The top 6, let's say.)

You could do similar rundowns of Cadets, Crown, Cavs, etc etc etc shows. Here's our big brass hit for audience response. Here's our whiplash drill...

I definitely agree. This also came up in another thread about should there be "compulsory" elements to DCI judging, and my argument in that thread was that there already are, essentially. The main point here, though, was just that Blue Devils this year was the epitome of a "safe" show. They know what skills to display, and they do so, just enough to get credit. In terms of keeping to their formula for success while also being entertaining, I think Cabaret Voltaire is their most successful show in the past several years. But it was not a risky show, however unusual it was.

[perc2100]

no two judges should ever fully agree IMO. that comes off as collusion.

That's a good statement in theory, but it's possible to be on a judging panel with someone else who has very similar standards, tastes, ideals, etc. I've judged on panels where I fairly strongly disagreed with a judge, and other panels where I've strongly agreed with a judge. And sometimes if a group is really great (or really bad), there's just no other decision to arrive at, regardless of what the other guys/gals on the panel think.

Of course, I hate absolutes, so I would naturally have an aversion to your statement

but the problem is effect is judged if you se anyof the triad, when really, you should see all of it to be truly effective

To be fair, the problem is that someone HAS to judge effect in the activity, and the problem is some groups just don't design and/or perform effectively: you still have to right down a number and give the group credit for whatever effect they can muster, even if it is meager/incomplete.

[perc2100]

no two judges should ever fully agree IMO. that comes off as collusion.

And FWIW I agree to you in response, assuming you mean this in the sense of 'judges don't HAVE to agree:' I do agree with that

[perc2100]

And the problem with only writing a show that is easily attained is that you're not teaching your members to be challenged beyond their limits. That's why I don't mind a bit of dirt for the sake of "going for it".

As a writer and teacher myself .. I always want to challenge my students. ALWAYS! If they aren't being challenged then they aren't growing.

If I just wrote something that they could perfect and never ask more of them, they begin to learn that playing the game is the only key to success. Which is a HORRIBLE lesson to be teaching.

Sadly, with DCI being judged the way that it is (from top to bottom) ... there is no consistency in giving higher scores to corps that have easily achievable shows.

Conversely, there is little consistency in giving credit to corps that challenge their members to go beyond what would normally be expected of the human body both musically and visually.

In the end .. the only consistency we have is that it's inconsistent.

I'm totally with you: as a teacher/designer of a scholastic program I'm all about the educational values. I love pushing my students to achieve things in November they were no where near achieving in August. I honestly enjoy problem solving (cleaning), teaching students new skills & watching them develop into great musicians/performers/human beings.

HOWEVER...

teaching/designing for drum corps is not just an educational thing. There should, of course, be a fine line between a show that is designed with a degree of difficulty while also being optimally effective and being achievable. If you design something that is challenging but not 100% achievable, you either failed as a designer or as a teacher (and the lesson learned from the members = "if you want to win you have to be clean").

[perc2100]

then BD supporters should not get their thongs in a bunch when those simple minded idiots as you call them ##### that the shows are boring.

Remember it takes all kinds of fans to keep the activity alive and thriving. if you #### too many off, they walk. genius business strategy no?

1) I never called anyone idiots

2) I don't think too many BD supporters are getting too upset about people complaining about their shows (they're too busy celebrating their undefeated Championship season and, FWIW, I REALLY wanted Crown to win

And just like the film, or music industry, you're absolutely right: it takes all genres of fans to keep the activity afloat. And in the case of DCI, I think there are PLENTY of entertaining drum corps who design shows for mass-appeal. Just like the film industry didn't fall into a downward spiral when a low-budget, low box office earner won the Best Picture Award (like "Hurt Locker," when it won over the highest grossing movie of all time, "Avatar"). And the music industry to fall apart when whatever horrible band/artist/prefabricated garbage act wins a ton of awards. If you don't like Blue Devil's shows, or find them boring, there are several other corps performing at Finals whom you might find just as entertaining.

Of course, this is a different activity than the entertainment business. And while DCI is a competition-driven activity, whomever wins is certainly not the final declaration of what show a person likes the most.

But, attendance was up this year, and Regional attendance was also reportedly high. So I guess not too many people are walking?

[perc2100]

No average joe's in his country club, eh?

Heh, s'ok - I can spend my money elsewhere.

Sigh...

Several people seem to misconstrue my meaning.

There were several popular shows in 2012: arguably FAR more than controversial. What I'm saying is, not every show has to be a mass-appealing show: controversy, or outside the box, or artsy, etc. is OK. The most popular movie of 2012 was a comic book superhero movie: a movie made for mass-market, broad appeal. On the other end of the spectrum, a really smart sci-fi indie movie was released that was made for several hundred thousand dollars, made I think only a million or so, and was seen by few: but it was INCREDIBLE, and FAR more intellectually rewarding and thought provoking than whether or not Thor can beat Hulk. Both movies were critically acclaimed, and both serve a part of the movie-going option (and FWIW I loved both 'Avengers' and 'Sound of My Voice').

[perc2100]

I'm not so sure that Blue Devils please plenty of crowds. At the Austin show last year when they had fan voting via text message, the Blue Devils were voted 7th by the fans. Also the rare fan vote highlights what I think why people are frustrated with the Blue Devils. The judges placed BD 3rd while the fans voted BD 7th. The BD had the largest disconnect between judges and fans at this show.

Fan Vote Difference

1. Cavaliers 1 0

2. Cadets 2 0

3. Blue Devils 7 4

4. Carolina Crown 3 -1

5. Bluecoats 6 1

6. Phantom 4 -2

7. Santa Clara 8 1

8. Blue Stars 5 -3

Here's something else I noticed. If you look at blog from the finals last year, Boo said that rough 50% of the crowd stayed to watch the Cadets encore performance. However, this year, Boo blogged that only 10% of the crowd to watch the Blue Devils encore performance. That's a huge difference and I guarantee you that if Crown won a lot more than 10% would stayed. I was in the audience and the crowd was definitely rooting for Crown.

They please enough fans to help DCI have higher attendance in 2012 than 2011, help DCI get high attendance at Regional shows, and sell a TON of merchandise. Regardless of the turnout of a flawed fan judging (and there's no disputing that there were a TON of great, entertaining shows in 2011: heck, I would've voted BD out of the Top 5 from a sheer "I was more entertained by" vote), there were still plenty of fans who like BD's show. They are not hurting for support. I would almost bet money that BD made significantly more in souvie sales in 2012 than fan-favorite Jersey Surf.

(but I would LOVE to see who sold more between BD & Crown!)

[BeachDrums]

It's most definitely not about taking risks or thinking outside the box. Blue Devils' shows the last few years are clever wrappers for technical showcases, but they are as safe as can be. Nothing is executed more often than necessary to get credit from the judges, but they hit all the de-facto compulsory design elements along the way.

.

Ditto. The Blue Devils, until recent years have been one of my favorite corps, but not anymore. I will say this about them. IN my opinion, the element BD has that most corps just don't seem to care to put into their shows is personality. BD has personality. Again, in my opinion, most corps lack "stage presence," charisma, personality. Call it what you wish. If other corps figure out that this is an important element they lack and hire the techs to show corps how to sell they shows to the audience and judges, I believe, the leaderboard will change. Wake up!

[saxfreq1128]

I definitely agree. This also came up in another thread about should there be "compulsory" elements to DCI judging, and my argument in that thread was that there already are, essentially. The main point here, though, was just that Blue Devils this year was the epitome of a "safe" show. They know what skills to display, and they do so, just enough to get credit. In terms of keeping to their formula for success while also being entertaining, I think Cabaret Voltaire is their most successful show in the past several years. But it was not a risky show, however unusual it was.

We agree.

I'd say the biggest risky show BD has done in the last few years was Through a Glass, Darkly. I know people still don't entirely enjoy it. And I know people get hung up on the props. But what they accomplished that year was a pretty remarkable thing. This year, meh, not as much, but I still really liked it -- would've liked it even more if it weren't preceded by the 08-11 shows.