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What does BDs’ victory really mean?


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You (and many others) wanted the judges to validate your taste and they didn't.

I share in your observation, and believe it is an accurate one for perhaps too many. I never could quite understand why what a person likes in a show somehow needs to be validated by the judges in placement. They are not the same. One should be ok with the judges doing their thing, and fans doing their thing.If ( for example ) we find a show boring, unfulfilling, confusing or whatever, but it wins with the judges.. thats fine. If a show grabs us and entertains us, but it doesn't place well with the judges, thats fine too. Who needs the handful of people (judges ) to validate what we as fans like or don't particularly care for in a show ? I don't need a judge to tell me what I like or don't like. And they certainly arn't checking in with the likes of me either when it comes to what I as a fan like or don't like. I don't get into their domain. And they don't get into my domain either. Its a fairly good, arms length relationship we've had over the years. I wished the Judges all liked what I ilke. But they probably don't care what I like.. so why should I care what they like ? I don't. And so the judges and I seem to agree on disregarding one another's inputs when it comes to placements and/ or enjoyment levels of each Corps shows over the years. It seems to work out for the both of us pretty well too, near as I can tell anyway.

Edited by BRASSO
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the post for for the other poster BUT my point is that you donthave to like everyone .

I think we can all agree that variety in Drum Corps shows by the Corps in terms of styling, diversity levels in the Corps itself, staging, uniforms, selection of music played, marching style, ethos conveyed, etc has been " different " between the Corps from Day One... since the 60's anyway. As such, I've never met a single person in my life that liked all the Corps in performance with the same levels of like or dislike for the performances. Since the Corps all varied, the level of enjoyment reflected this variety. Some we liked more than others, and vice versa. To that extent, everyone is on board ( I'd imagine ) that nobody wants an about face and a " change " to a lack of variety to take hold in Drum Corps Corps shows performances in the future. Nobody wants all the Corps to play Melaquena, nor all the Corps to be inspired by the Dada Movement. I think we begin with this fundamental mutual understanding and then we go from there. NOBODY wants all 12 Corps or whatever " to be alike ". They never have been. And they are not about too now either. Phantom won as recently as 2008 with a traditional theme understood by all ( ie " Spartacus " ). Did it alter what the Corps around them did in shows in 2009 ? No. I don't think so. So will BD's style of show for this year, chaange the Corps shows around them for 2013 ? No. I don't think so. Corps draw up their own blueprints. They have since Day One.

Edited by BRASSO
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I think we can all agree that variety in Drum Corps shows by the Corps in terms of styling, diversity levels in the Corps itself, staging, uniforms, selection of music played, marching style, ethos conveyed, etc has been " different " between the Corps from Day One... since the 60's anyway. As such, I've never met a single person in my life that liked all the Corps in performance with the same levels of like or dislike for the performances. Since the Corps all varied, the level of enjoyment reflected this variety. Some we liked more than others, and vice versa. To that extent, everyone is on board ( I'd imagine ) that nobody wants an about face and a " chaange " to a lack of variety to take hold in Drum Corps Corps shows performances in the future. Nobody wants all the Corps to play Melaquena, nor all the Corps to be inspired by the Dada Movement. I think we begin with this fundamental mutual understanding and then we go from there. NOBODY wants all 12 Corps or whatever " to be alike ". They never have been. And they are not about too now.

EXACTLY... so as I said if someone doesnt like a corps and winning or losing doesnt affect themor scores dont mean anything to them ( as claimed by many ) then if someone doesnt like a specific corps, move on or go get a hot dog :smile:

Edited by GUARDLING
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EXACTLY... so as I said if someone doesnt like a corps and winning or losing doesnt affect themor scores dont mean anything to them ( as claimed by many ) then if someone doesnt like a specific corps, move on or go get a hot dog :smile:

Most already do, and it seems to work for them too.For example, when the Hawthorne Caballeros Alumni Corps were announced in exhibition at Championships in 2005, a lot of fans in front of us got up and left before they played their first note... presumably for a hot dog or whatever. Did that bother us ? No. We moved down front and got us a better vantage point. Same with us on Corps we have seen before that we believe are boring or unfulfilling, we'll sometimes try and beat the crowds at the concessions and go for a hot dog too. Does this bother fans that like the show of the Corps we left to go get a hot dog with ? Not anymore than it bothered us when anonymous fans left for the Cabs exhibition. Being tolerant is a GOOD thing. People should be free to like or dislike in Drum Corps whatever they want,imo. Especially, if they bought a ticket and went to the show. What we like or dislike in music is of a highly personal nature. Other fans.. and even judges... don't come between the performer and that performance out on the field and us, the fans.

Edited by BRASSO
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Most already do, and it seems to work for them too.For example, when the Hawthorne Caballeros Alumni Corps were announced in exhibition at Championships in 2005, a lot of fans in front of us got up and left... presumably for a hot dog or whatever. Did that bother us ? No. We moved down front and got us a better vantage point. Same with us on Corps we have seen that we believe are boring or unfulfilling, we'll sometimes try and beat the crowds at the concessions and go for a hot dog too. Does this bother fans that like the show of the Corps we left to go get a hot dog with ? Not anymore than it bothered us when anonymous fans left for the Cabs exhibition. Being tolerant is a GOOD thing. People should be free to like or dislike in Drum Corps whatever they want,imo. Especially, if they bought a ticket and went to the show. What we like or dislike in music is of a highly personal nature. Other fans.. and even judges... don't come between that performer and that performance out on the field and us, the fans.

totally agree although many feel they have to defend who they like by putting down another..or claiming to know everyone who feel the same....who cares...as you said....you dont have to like what a judge likes and that goes also for the fan in front of you or in another post.......doesnt matter at all

Edited by GUARDLING
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totally agree although many feel they have to defend who they like by putting down another..or claiming to know everyone who feel the same....who cares...as you said....you dont have to like what a judge likes and that goes also for the fan in front of you or in another post.......doesnt matter at all

I agree with you on this sentiment as well.

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I share in your observation, and believe it is an accurate one for perhaps too many. I never could quite understand why what a person likes in a show somehow needs to be validated by the judges in placement. They are not the same. One should be ok with the judges doing their thing, and fans doing their thing.If ( for example ) we find a show boring, unfulfilling, confusing or whatever, but it wins with the judges.. thats fine. If a show grabs us and entertains us, but it doesn't place well with the judges, thats fine too. Who needs the handful of people (judges ) to validate what we as fans like or don't particularly care for in a show ? I don't need a judge to tell me what I like or don't like. And they certainly arn't checking in with the likes of me either when it comes to what I as a fan like or don't like. I don't get into their domain. And they don't get into my domain either. Its a fairly good, arms length relationship we've had over the years. I wished the Judges all liked what I ilke. But they probably don't care what I like.. so why should I care what they like ? I don't. And so the judges and I seem to agree on disregarding one another's inputs when it comes to placements and/ or enjoyment levels of each Corps shows over the years. It seems to work out for the both of us pretty well too, near as I can tell anyway.

And this is why you and I don't have Ulcers Brasso! tongue.gif

We care enough to enjoy what we like, but not so much as to get sideways over entertainment. When that happens (getting sideways) we willingly give up the value of the activity.

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Well, now that everyone's having a big hug, let me throw the following spanner into the works:

There are I think two different distinctions between BD and other corps that are being blurred in this thread. This has often made the discussion meaningless. Here they are:

1. Crowd-Pleasing: Some have said that BD are less crowd pleasing than other corps. Some have argued that they are very crowd-pleasing. Both are right! (I'll explain below)

2. Accessibility: Some have said that BD is less accessible than other corps. While this year's show is obviously a bit less accessible than their usual shows, in general BD is not at all less accessible. In fact I would argue that BD is more accessible than either the Cadets or the Cavaliers (on average, remember). There's nothing hard to understand about a BD show, really.

We hear the 'accessiblity argument' mostly at shows, where the same salt-of-the-earth fans who "know a guy who knows a judge who admitted it's all rigged" complain about shows they don't understand. However, I'm pretty sure they are not well represented in this thread, what with it being composed entirely of people who can write and all.

I suspect BD's shows (on average) were accessible to everyone on this thread, correct? But that doesn't mean they were crowd-pleasing.

Ok, so now what about that crowd-pleasing issue? First I have always felt that there are two very distinct drum corps experiences. One fan appreciates the music above all, and listens to tapes (mp3s) in the car, and also watches the multi-cam videos. I suspect these fans consider BD very crowd-pleasing indeed, and on this level I agree completely.

The other kind of fan either bases his/her opinion purely on recollections from watching the show live (note that word 'watching'), or goes out and gets the pressbox angle videos to relive the glory as it was intended to be viewed. This is a completely different experience, and I would argue that this is where BD are less crowd-pleasing. Their drill (not the color guard itself, which is very crowd-pleasing indeed) but the drill consists of even fewer big forms than the other corps. And we know why: The big forms are judgeable. The same fundamental issue that Zingali was dealing with way back when. We also know that BD is the opposite in some sense from the Cavaliers, who are very drill focused. BD wants to win best brass, best percussion and best color guard, and they have historically been willing to slow down and obfuscate the drill slightly to accomplish that. All the corps spend too much time in the "nine-ring circus" (as I call it - lots of little groups doing different things) for most people's liking, BD just does it more than most.

The big forms they do create are amazing, but are too few and far between for many fans.

Actually, I think this is slowly improving as DCI tweaks the sheets (Ensemble Visual is now Visual Analysis, I think), so there is reason for optimism.

Let me suggest something. Here is a link to BD's staff. If you are criticizing BD's audience appeal, make a reference to the instructor whose decisions you are criticizing. That would clarify a lot.

http://bluedevils.or...ff/?programID=1

Whose work are you finding insufficiently crowd-pleasing?

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You (and many others) wanted the judges to validate your taste and they didn't.

My frustration is due to the fact that the Blue Devils typically aren't even in my top 5 of entertaining shows of the finals and yet they still place 1st or 2nd. The Blue Devils are my least watched corp on my Disc 1 from last year's World Championships. People will say that's just because I'm a BD hater but in reality I really want to like the Blue Devils. I absolutely hate it when I only watch 5 of the top 6 corps. I still don't get the 1930 show whereas I've watched Carolina Crown and Cadets from that year 10x as much. Whatever they are doing I wish I could get so that I would enjoy them more.

Again, I think the disconnect seen in the fan vote from last year DCI Austin reflects this frustration from others as well.

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My frustration is due to the fact that the Blue Devils typically aren't even in my top 5 of entertaining shows of the finals and yet they still place 1st or 2nd. The Blue Devils are my least watched corp on my Disc 1 from last year's World Championships. People will say that's just because I'm a BD hater but in reality I really want to like the Blue Devils. I absolutely hate it when I only watch 5 of the top 6 corps. I still don't get the 1930 show whereas I've watched Carolina Crown and Cadets from that year 10x as much. Whatever they are doing I wish I could get so that I would enjoy them more.

Again, I think the disconnect seen in the fan vote from last year DCI Austin reflects this frustration from others as well.

If you really want to like BD...like them! Don't try to force, but don't lie to yourself, either.

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