Field Judges

[skevinp]

the moreyou continue to pull things up into the stands, the more you will have shows designed for one area, which will also affect the paying customers lucky enough to get seats between the 40's

I would rather have shows designed for one area where thousands of devoted fans are (and most of the rest of the fans are reasonably near) than one area where zero fans are.

[Perry S]

While I don't know for certain, something tells me that the OP doesn't qualify for the "older" title...

Charlie, are you a geezer?

First show 1976 I still want field judges Geez

[supersop]

This is a crazy discussion to me... If you have ever listened to a judges tape you realize how important it is to have some one on the field.. Otherwise all we need is 2 judges vis and mus effect.

Isn't that really about all we have anyway? Honestly? Not to sound trite here ... but at the end of the day .. GE decides a title and placement of every corps over 80% of the time.

Edited August 29, 2012 by supersop

[mn trumpter guy]

Isn't that really about all we have anyway? Honestly? Not to sound trite here ... but at the end of the day .. GE decides a title and placement of every corps over 80% of the time.

To me, that is an argument to increase the effect of the field score, rather than to remove the score altogether.

[euphplayer07]

You have to judge the individual. A lot of the older people on here don't seem to understand that. (< skip over this part if you're just going to focus on it)

The feet scores aren't based on how it looks from the box... they're based on every single member individually looking the same, and hopefully looking good.

Brass is the same. Everyone sounds loud from the box and mostly together. It's not until you get down to the field that judges can say, "hey, this whole section sounds bad. Some players aren't contributing and the 3rds are totally out of tune." It might sound okay from the box, but so do marching bands. Drum corps is about the details.

The sad thing is a group doesn't have to look good to score well as long as they all look the same. Smooth, elegant, fluid moving vs. bouncing, frantic, stiff moving will both get the same credit as long as everyone looks the same. To me a look of consistancy is what judges evaluate not a level of consistant excellence.

Ok tangent done..... Yes field judges are necessary. :)

[MikeD]

I know in some band circuits it's the in thing to have the judge upstairs for percussion, USBands being one of them. No offense, but that sheet is a mess. it's part ensemble, part effect...I mean what the hell? You already have a music ensemble and music effect judge.....you need a thrid person up there doing part of those two guys jobs just for drums?

The USBands percussion sheet is just fine. The percussion score, and the guard score, are stand-alone captions used for special awards. They are not mandatory for a host to evn use.

It is essential that the percussion sheet cover the performance and the effect of the performance in coming up with a percussion score. Unless the percussion book/performance contributes to the overall music effect, it is useless, and you end up with the band that rams the most notes the cleanest wins the award. The percussion judge has to include the effect in his/her score. It make perfect sense to me, far more than a percussion score taken at field level would determine 'best percussion'.

[actucker]

The USBands percussion sheet is just fine. The percussion score, and the guard score, are stand-alone captions used for special awards. They are not mandatory for a host to evn use.

It is essential that the percussion sheet cover the performance and the effect of the performance in coming up with a percussion score. Unless the percussion book/performance contributes to the overall music effect, it is useless, and you end up with the band that rams the most notes the cleanest wins the award. The percussion judge has to include the effect in his/her score. It make perfect sense to me, far more than a percussion score taken at field level would determine 'best percussion'.

There are ensemble music judges that are responsible for that aspect of the percussion's contribution. That's why there is a music ensemble caption. If you really think the award simply goes to the group with the most clean notes, you aren't paying much attention to who's been winning the sanford. The Cavaliers in 2011 had their share of notes, sure. But most of what they were doing was much more intellectual and layered than it was physically hard. There was a ton of very detailed dynamic contrast, and metric modulation. They certainly didn't have the most notes. Blue Devils this year didn't have the most notes on the field. That award goes to the Cadets. But what Devils were doing was again, more layered, and musical (I can't believe I'm saying this about the Blue Devils).

As a percussion director, I can tell you that the sheets on which the percussion judge is separate and optional are infuriating. The percussion section is part of the band, and thus our score should be a part of the total score. I go to shows where they opt not to judge percussion, and then listen to the individual music tape, and I get one of two things. The first option being someone who literally only listens to the horn line, making zero comments to the percussion whatsoever other than "x section is too loud, and I can't hear every individual hornline member". The section option is a judge who does make comments towards the percussion section, all of which are wildly off base. There's a reason you hire a percussionist to judge the actual playing of the percussion instruments. A wind player simply isn't as qualified to make comments beyond the effect caption, any more than I am qualified to talk about brass beyond the effect caption.

This is (again) where WGI has it figured out, and if you think about the separation of the field judges from the box judges in this way, it makes more sense. In WGI percussion, there is a judge much lower in the stands who judges "performance analysis". Their entire job is to judge what you are doing, and how well you are doing it. They aren't concerned with effect, or concept. They are judging things like microphrasing, uniformity of technique, section clarity, and individual sound quality. Upstairs you have your visual and GE judges. The GE judge deals with the big picture stuff. Is the show effective? Are you maximizing your highs and lows? How is the balance? Etc. Visual is, well, visual.

The field judges are essentially PA judges in DCI. Their job is to judge individual execution, not effect. The awards for those captions are awards for achievement, not effect. That's why there is a general effect award. That being said, I do think DCI was on to something when they had 2 percussion judges. One in the box, and the other on the field. It is absolutely essential that we get that field sampling. We know that certain things will be missed, just as certain things will be missed from upstairs. On the other hand, it would be nice to get some comments on the tape that deal with battery front interaction, as well as percussion ensemble balance. Again, effect and contribution to the musical ensemble is the job of the ensemble music judge, and not the percussion judge.

[Jeff Ream]

I would rather have shows designed for one area where thousands of devoted fans are (and most of the rest of the fans are reasonably near) than one area where zero fans are.

did I say program to the end zone?

No, but how many shows don't have crowds out to the 30's?

[Jeff Ream]

The USBands percussion sheet is just fine. The percussion score, and the guard score, are stand-alone captions used for special awards. They are not mandatory for a host to evn use.

It is essential that the percussion sheet cover the performance and the effect of the performance in coming up with a percussion score. Unless the percussion book/performance contributes to the overall music effect, it is useless, and you end up with the band that rams the most notes the cleanest wins the award. The percussion judge has to include the effect in his/her score. It make perfect sense to me, far more than a percussion score taken at field level would determine 'best percussion'.

so why have GE then? I mean you have one person judging the entire ensemble for efect, and then one justpercussion. IMO it sounds to me like music effectis ignoring percussion.

[Jeff Ream]

There are ensemble music judges that are responsible for that aspect of the percussion's contribution. That's why there is a music ensemble caption. If you really think the award simply goes to the group with the most clean notes, you aren't paying much attention to who's been winning the sanford. The Cavaliers in 2011 had their share of notes, sure. But most of what they were doing was much more intellectual and layered than it was physically hard. There was a ton of very detailed dynamic contrast, and metric modulation. They certainly didn't have the most notes. Blue Devils this year didn't have the most notes on the field. That award goes to the Cadets. But what Devils were doing was again, more layered, and musical (I can't believe I'm saying this about the Blue Devils).

As a percussion director, I can tell you that the sheets on which the percussion judge is separate and optional are infuriating. The percussion section is part of the band, and thus our score should be a part of the total score. I go to shows where they opt not to judge percussion, and then listen to the individual music tape, and I get one of two things. The first option being someone who literally only listens to the horn line, making zero comments to the percussion whatsoever other than "x section is too loud, and I can't hear every individual hornline member". The section option is a judge who does make comments towards the percussion section, all of which are wildly off base. There's a reason you hire a percussionist to judge the actual playing of the percussion instruments. A wind player simply isn't as qualified to make comments beyond the effect caption, any more than I am qualified to talk about brass beyond the effect caption.

This is (again) where WGI has it figured out, and if you think about the separation of the field judges from the box judges in this way, it makes more sense. In WGI percussion, there is a judge much lower in the stands who judges "performance analysis". Their entire job is to judge what you are doing, and how well you are doing it. They aren't concerned with effect, or concept. They are judging things like microphrasing, uniformity of technique, section clarity, and individual sound quality. Upstairs you have your visual and GE judges. The GE judge deals with the big picture stuff. Is the show effective? Are you maximizing your highs and lows? How is the balance? Etc. Visual is, well, visual.

The field judges are essentially PA judges in DCI. Their job is to judge individual execution, not effect. The awards for those captions are awards for achievement, not effect. That's why there is a general effect award. That being said, I do think DCI was on to something when they had 2 percussion judges. One in the box, and the other on the field. It is absolutely essential that we get that field sampling. We know that certain things will be missed, just as certain things will be missed from upstairs. On the other hand, it would be nice to get some comments on the tape that deal with battery front interaction, as well as percussion ensemble balance. Again, effect and contribution to the musical ensemble is the job of the ensemble music judge, and not the percussion judge.

:worthy: