13strokeroll Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Good question. I would imagine that neither corps had to do anything, (if Bluecoats have even had anything said to them) Of course, competitively, they are not in the same boat as Troopers with regard to having to make such a change. Both corps use flags that are not true representations of the national colors. Although in the concept of both shows that has to be the intent. Bluecoats use numerous "flags" that are spun and appear to touch the ground in their opener. Troopers use a single "flag" in their opener that is spun and appears to touch the ground. The single Trooper "flag" appears again in the closer and is spun and appears to touch the ground. It is also used as a conduit to follow through the remainder of the show, but is not used in guard flag work. I would also imagine that no one in these corps intended to offend or upset anyone with the presentations of the "flags." Unfortunately, we live in the land of the free and the home of the offended. I still say that Troopers should tell em to pound sand. Sideways. With a red hot poker. Bring back the flag! Sorry to give you a civics lesson; but there is a very specific reason a "flag burning" amendment was proposed in the 80s - desecration of the flag is considered incitement and can be criminally prosecuted. Touching a flag to the ground bears the same criminal responsibility as unfurling it upside down. There must have been a far smarter method to convey the message than a cheap visual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Very well put! Except, we are not. Desecration of the flag is still considered a criminal act as incitement. It is not protected as free speech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 It's worth mentioning (as the PDF you linked does) that the "laws" such as they are apply only to the federal government. Individuals and corporations are free to treat the flag however they wish (as the many tattered and faded flags flying 24-hours a day, unlit at night, outside places of business attest, not to mention the use of the flag pattern on any number of clothing and decorative items). Not that I want to see the Troopers disrespect the flag in any way, but to be clear it's not a legal issue, just a respect/manners/patriotism issue. Sorry to disappoint you, it is. The severity is typically defined by the response it generates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) Why do I have this feeling that if some corps, other than Troopers, made it look like the CG was wiping their butts with American flags the judges would love it! But, since the use of this flag brings out patriotic responses from the crowds the powers-that-be tell Troop to take it out! Screw the judges and put the flags back in! The claim that has been made in this discussion is that Troopers were scolded by a judge for treating (what looked too much like) an American flag disrespectfully--not that they were dinged for being emphatically patriotic. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Link to discussion threads for all 2013 World Class corps Edited July 5, 2013 by N.E. Brigand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13strokeroll Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 The US Code mandates the design of the flag and spells out requirements for its display etc. by federal agencies. And there are some rules about commercial use of the flag within the District of Columbia. Outside the federal government proper and D.C., however, the code is merely a suggestion: The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America is established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. Trying to enforce the code among citizens would run into First Amendment problems. It's one of the paradoxes of freedom: Our flag is especially worthy of honor because we are free to treat it any way we want. That said, Troopers are the last organization in the world that would deliberately push the boundaries of respect and good taste when it comes to the American flag. Consider where the flag was displayed. At a school? Schools are federal jurisdictions. The code applies and the behavior is subject to penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) Sorry to give you a civics lesson, but there is a very specific reason a "flag burning" amendment was proposed in the '80s -- desecration of the flag is considered incitement and can be criminally prosecuted. Touching a flag to the ground bears the same criminal responsibility as unfurling it upside down. I'm sorry, but your civics lesson is wrong. Such a constitutional amendment was proposed (in the '90s) because the Supreme Court ruled in 1989 and 1990 that flag burning was protected as free speech. (Two of the justices voting in the majority, Scalia and Kennedy, are still on the bench.) However, that this speech is legal (as it should be) does not mean that it is appropriate in drum corps. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Link to discussion threads for all 2013 World Class corps Edited July 5, 2013 by N.E. Brigand 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daave Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Sorry to give you a civics lesson; but there is a very specific reason a "flag burning" amendment was proposed in the 80s - desecration of the flag is considered incitement and can be criminally prosecuted. Touching a flag to the ground bears the same criminal responsibility as unfurling it upside down. There must have been a far smarter method to convey the message than a cheap visual. I believe that there is most likely judicial precedence that would have established that the flag in question that garnered a response worthy of bringing some sort of court action was indeed first the National Colors, not a representation. In the case of both Troopers and Bluecoats I doubt any court at any level would have allowed such a filing once they saw the "flags" in question. On a side note... I was watching the PGA Grenbrier Classic on TV yesterday and at one point they showed of two ladies sitting on the ground with a small child near them. Both had shirts they were wearing that appeared to be representations of the National Colors. They were not. Both were wearing some sort of shorts that appeared to be representations of the National Colors. They were not. They were both wearing "Cat in the Hat" hats that were obvious representations of the US National Colors, but they were not. At one point the small child knocked one of the ladies hats to the ground. Was it a violation of some, act, some code, some law done with malice, forethought and intent because the hat touched the ground. I suspect not. These sorts of things happen on a daily basis in this nation and no litigation is brought. What you cite above is a specific example of an act that was, again, most likely done with malice, forethought and intent to garner a reaction. A far cry from what The Troopers and Bluecoats are wishing to accomplish this summer, in my opinion. Anyway, I appreciate a good lesson no matter how it is presented. With regard to the civics lesson, I'd like to think I lived one for 20+ years as I am a retired Army First Sergeant. I raised my hand more than a couple of times to swear an oath to continue that civics lesson. Finally, when you have stood at a grave sight and lived the civics lesson, by choking back the words that begin, "On behalf of the President of the United States and a grateful nation..." and presenting the true National Colors to grieving family, then the civics lesson becomes quite clear. Sorry for the rant and my apologies to the Troopers for the thread hijack. Respectfully Daave 1SG, (Ret.) USA 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass5 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Saw the Troopers at Madison's show and really liked them a lot. After some previous years where I questioned the programming, this show screams Troopers. I know Chris Komnick of the Madison Scouts likes to talk about "the Scouts brand." It sure appears a similar thought process is at work with this year's Troopers. Good for them! Jim, I thought the exact thing when I saw the Troopers at DOP. I recall at the Scouts annual board meeting last fall that someone asked Chris Komnick if he thought it was a "conflict of interest" that Donnie VanDoren, and Robert W. Smith were going to be working with the Troopers as well as the Scouts. His response was something like "a healthy competitive Troopers is nothing but good for drum corps so I'm all for it". The Troopers were the first drum corps I ever saw back in Eau Claire in 1966 and I have always loved them. And by the way a 8 year old can tell that flag is NOT an authentic American Flag. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IllianaLancerContra Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) Sorry to give you a civics lesson; but there is a very specific reason a "flag burning" amendment was proposed in the 80s - desecration of the flag is considered incitement and can be criminally prosecuted. Touching a flag to the ground bears the same criminal responsibility as unfurling it upside down. There must have been a far smarter method to convey the message than a cheap visual. This was discussed earlier in the thread. The 'Flag Code' (laws that apply to treatment & display of the Flag) was challenged in the 1980's, and the criminal penalties were deemed unconstitutional as a violation of the 1st amendment. There was an unsuccessful attempt (or attempts) to create a constitutional amendment. All this applies to a 'real' US Flag. The flag in question is NOT a real US Flag. No one has considered the possibility that the Troopers pulled the flag on purpose, started a rumor that a judge didn't like it, which led to an uproar (& Granny almost having a stroke), all with the intent of putting it back in when they need the GE points the most. I have never met a conspiracy theory I didn't like... PS - ditto what 1st SG Dave said above. Been there done it too. Edited July 5, 2013 by IllianaLancerContra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troopers1 Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 The flag of controversy was back last night carried by an old friend. Awesome show. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.