actucker Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 If I get your meaning correctly: You talk about the differences between DC and MB over the years yet talk about audiences like their makeup is the same over the past 40+ years. What makes you think the audience didn't change along with roles of MB/DC and the changes within DC itself? No idea about the Manoney City show I referenced but from talking to people at the Carlisle and Hershey field shows and Harrisburg standstill from year to year (and other one time shot shows) the percentage of non-corps people BITD was a higher percentage. Much as some of todays people bash the past, the music was more recognizible and entertaining to the non-musical people. That DID bring in people who knew nothing about music theory and didn't even know anyone in a corps. Much like the same type of people will go to a band or orchestra concert today if the price is right. You're entitled to your theory but I talked to these people to find out first hand. Let's put it this way... do you honestly think almost all of those 1,000s of people in the stands BITD came because they knew someone in a corps or used to march themselves. I know the Central PA area (55 years now) and there were not THAT many corps. Like I said it was a different time and the audience make up changed along with everything else. Edit: thinking about changes from the early 1960s.... willing to bet it took more than an hour to get to MC BITD from the places you mentioned..... Took a while for Eisenhowers Interstate Highway Act to get rolling in some areas...... :shutup:/> Oh Yeah.... the Buccs (Reading) were not at the show..... Not a single interstate in the route that leads from Allentown to Mahonay City. Sure, there were probably some people who just came to see the show and weren't affiliated. Just like there are now. The point is, you're not going to draw a significant percentage of your crowd from that kind of market. If you truly believe that that fan makeup has changed that much, you need to look way back long before amplification, Bb, grounded fronts etc to figure out why/how that happened. I would still contend that it hasn't changed that much. I think you're overestimating how much more accessible the shows were back then. What music was accessible in the mainstream was different then as well. At the time, John Coltrane was considered blasphemous in some circles. Now he's hailed as one of the greatest musicians of all time. As that source music changed, so did drum corps. As the American culture changed, so did drum corps. There are way more factors involved than just how "accessible" the music was back then. Frankly, if you ran a 1960's drum corps onto the field at a modern drum corps show, it would be less accessible than most of what goes on on the field today because people's tastes, exposures, and preferences evolve within their culture. Its the same reason why I play an Ellington record for my students and they just can't get into it. It doesn't take away from how great Ellington was. It simply demonstrates that times, art forms, tastes in the general populous all change. As for your talks with the crowd, did you talk to every single audience member and run a survey? Did you write down your results? You're relying on your memory of something that you weren't necessarily keeping track of. I question my own memories of how things happen all the time. At the end of the day, facts are facts. Drum corps is a niche activity. We can argue all we want about how it got that way, whether or not it was always that way etc. As it is right now, it is a niche activity, and has been for at least 20 years. We are not going to draw crowds from the general populous because what we do takes a certain amount of knowledge of what you're looking at to understand. How many people do you know that say they can't watch baseball because nothing happens. But to an avid baseball fan who pays close attention to the numbers and strategy involved, there's a ton going on. That's a major market sport, and the same phenomenon exists. The more you know about an activity, the more you will appreciate it as a spectator. If we were to go backwards and eliminate some of the things that we've changed along the way, we would be going against the grain of the fan bases evolution. Inevitably, some will not like the changes, and stop listening. However, along the way, we will continue to pick up new fans who are introduced to the activity through their scholastic band programs, or friends who have marched. There are literally hundreds of thousands of high school band members across the country. Do you really think they are going to all of a sudden all become music majors? No. But you're certainly going to see a ton of them at drum corps shows. I know I do. Some of those kids will go on to march. Many won't, but a large portion of them will still be fans. Luckily, there are enough corps with different approaches that a wide variety of drum corps fans have something to appreciate at each show. You don't like the Bluecoats? Fine. Scouts are on next, and you might like them better. Don't like the Scouts? Try the Cadets. Every corps approaches their design with different source material and ideas in mind. Again, in order to reach the layman, we would have to literally change everything about ourselves. Going back to the 1960s would not help. Going back to the 90s wouldn't even help. Our activity, at no point, is going to draw a significant portion of its fans from people who have no idea what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottgordon Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 What we seem to disagree on is what makes drum corps unique. You seem to think that its the product (which I would still argue is very different from that of marching band). What I consider unique to drum corps is the experience that the members get from it, which wasn't always present in local community drum corps in the first place. Indeed, the natural progression is: (1) gradually change the activity to make it more like other more popular forms, (2) say that the differences are something else, since that has indeed become true, and (3) state that it is no longer necessary to continue, because indeed it isn't. I personally fear that drumcorps cannot survive longterm solely on the strength of it's virtues as a summer youth experience. As even proponents admit, youth these days have a much richer set of options for activities than they did when drumcorps was at its height of participation. In order for it to survive with the kind of quality/intensity as it does now, it needs to maintain its niche, not eschew it in search of a different niche. That's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottgordon Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Frankly, if you ran a 1960's drum corps onto the field at a modern drum corps show, it would be less accessible than most of what goes on on the field today because people's tastes, exposures, and preferences evolve within their culture. I agree that corps should continue to draw from changing public tastes, as it has for decades. But that isn't what it is doing. Instead, much of drumcorps is drawing increasingly from more and more obscure music and arranging styles that interest the staff, but don't reflect popular tastes. Furthermore, you contradict yourself when you then go on to say: We are not going to draw crowds from the general populous because what we do takes a certain amount of knowledge of what you're looking at to understand. Ah yes, the old "educate the audience" argument. I've heard that before in other struggling activities. Maybe some people go to drumcorps shows to be educated. I personally think that most people don't, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to take a survey. I love to be introduced to music I haven't heard before - my gripe is more with the arrangements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Marching band is not a replacement in terms of what makes drum corps unique. It is a replacement in terms of what function drum corps used to serve within the community (along with a ton of other community outreach programs). That makes even less sense. First of all, competitive marching band has not replaced drum corps in many of the communities that local drum corps programs used to serve. Second, since even you admit there are tons of community outreach programs, how do you demonstrate that any particular one of them "replaced" another? What we seem to disagree on is what makes drum corps unique. You seem to think that its the product (which I would still argue is very different from that of marching band). What I consider unique to drum corps is the experience that the members get from it, So you are one of those who believe that (name of youth activity) is unique because of the experience it provides, regardless of how many other youth activities provide the same experiences. OK, let's just agree to disagree on that one. which wasn't always present in local community drum corps in the first place. Those local drum corps were not the same as the touring corps. That same separation exists now, we just call those local drum corps high school marching bands. There was no separation. In fact, for quite awhile, there were no touring corps. But, in your mind, touring corps and non-touring corps were/are two separate activities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Indeed, the natural progression is: (1) gradually change the activity to make it more like other more popular forms, (2) say that the differences are something else, since that has indeed become true, and (3) state that it is no longer necessary to continue, because indeed it isn't. I personally fear that drumcorps cannot survive longterm solely on the strength of it's virtues as a summer youth experience. As even proponents admit, youth these days have a much richer set of options for activities than they did when drumcorps was at its height of participation. In order for it to survive with the kind of quality/intensity as it does now, it needs to maintain its niche, not eschew it in search of a different niche. That's just my opinion. I understand where you're coming from. I just don't agree that the end game is inevitable. I also don't think that we should try to make ourselves more marketable to the general populous. Where we disagree is that I don't see us losing our niche simply by opening the doors to new ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I agree that corps should continue to draw from changing public tastes, as it has for decades. But that isn't what it is doing. Instead, much of drumcorps is drawing increasingly from more and more obscure music and arranging styles that interest the staff, but don't reflect popular tastes. Furthermore, you contradict yourself when you then go on to say: Ah yes, the old "educate the audience" argument. I've heard that before in other struggling activities. Maybe some people go to drumcorps shows to be educated. I personally think that most people don't, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to take a survey. I love to be introduced to music I haven't heard before - my gripe is more with the arrangements. Where did I say we should educate our audience? My point is that the vast majority of our audience is, in fact, somewhat educated towards our activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 That makes even less sense. First of all, competitive marching band has not replaced drum corps in many of the communities that local drum corps programs used to serve. Second, since even you admit there are tons of community outreach programs, how do you demonstrate that any particular one of them "replaced" another? So you are one of those who believe that (name of youth activity) is unique because of the experience it provides, regardless of how many other youth activities provide the same experiences. OK, let's just agree to disagree on that one. There was no separation. In fact, for quite awhile, there were no touring corps. But, in your mind, touring corps and non-touring corps were/are two separate activities? And what communities are you talking about in particular? Marching band is all over the country. You're simply trying to find contradictions that aren't there. Yes, there are tons of outreach programs, all geared towards the same goal that drum corps used to have. One of the major musical forms of that outreach is marching band. What exactly doesn't make sense there? Yes, the experience is in fact unique. Name another youth experience that provides an 80 day tour of the entire country. That experience, is in fact, very different from that of local corps. There is nothing to disagree about because its all factual. There are lots of forms of marching arts. There is winter guard, there is competitive high school marching band. There is indoor percussion. There is DCA drum corps, there are pipe and drum bands. The list goes on. Each activity is unique in many ways. One of the biggest things that sets DCI apart, and has for quite a long time (regardless of whether it was always that way) is the move in and tour. Explain to me how that's not unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 (edited) Not a single interstate in the route that leads from Allentown to Mahonay City. Sure, there were probably some people who just came to see the show and weren't affiliated. Just like there are now. The point is, you're not going to draw a significant percentage of your crowd from that kind of market. If you truly believe that that fan makeup has changed that much, you need to look way back long before amplification, Bb, grounded fronts etc to figure out why/how that happened. I would still contend that it hasn't changed that much. Uhh... I am looking at the 70s/80s mostly so that would be way before what I underlined with exception of grounded pits which were a lot smaller in the early/mid 80s. And I have my ideas why fan makeup has changed but I'm sure if you disagree with me it's because I didn't ask enough people (see below). I think you're overestimating how much more accessible the shows were back then. What music was accessible in the mainstream was different then as well. At the time, John Coltrane was considered blasphemous in some circles. Now he's hailed as one of the greatest musicians of all time. As that source music changed, so did drum corps. As the American culture changed, so did drum corps. There are way more factors involved than just how "accessible" the music was back then. Frankly, if you ran a 1960's drum corps onto the field at a modern drum corps show, it would be less accessible than most of what goes on on the field today because people's tastes, exposures, and preferences evolve within their culture. And most of the general population, past or present, has no idea of who Coltrain is anyway so don't get the reference. And yes "mainstream" music differs by era (for my era it would be that Mangione guy more known for Megalo Mart in the 90s), but that was never my point. Wasn't saying we should do a 60s style show today either. Edit: Many time during my era I heard people (or did it myself) say they didn't recognize the music being played but liked it. This was usually followed by grabbing the program to check the rep (lot of times "Mangione" was involved :tongue:/> ). With "chop and bop" today finding a melody to follow might be harder. As for your talks with the crowd, did you talk to every single audience member and run a survey? Did you write down your results? You're relying on your memory of something that you weren't necessarily keeping track of. I question my own memories of how things happen all the time. Of course, of course, it can't be that you're mistaken about something like this. It must be that I remember incorrectly or didn't ask enough people.... Soooo how do YOU know what the crowd was like in the 70s/80s? At the end of the day, facts are facts. Drum corps is a niche activity. We can argue all we want about how it got that way, whether or not it was always that way etc. As it is right now, it is a niche activity, and has been for at least 20 years. Wait a minute.... are you saying that DC might not have been that much of a niche activity 20+ years ago. But when I say that more of the general population was at shows 30-40 years ago I'm wrong? I think you just agreed with me.... We are not going to draw crowds from the general populous because what we do takes a certain amount of knowledge of what you're looking at to understand. Where did I discuss getting large crowds from the general population on this thread? I think the way DC is going it's going to be less likely to happen (even more niche). Going back to the 1960s would not help. Going back to the 90s wouldn't even help. Never said it did so ????????? Edited December 10, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 And what communities are you talking about in particular? Marching band is all over the country. All over the suburbs, perhaps. But competitive marching band is still absent from many of the urban communities that drum corps used to serve. It is also strangely sparse in Massachusetts and Wisconsin, former hotbeds of local drum corps....and of course, Canada. You're simply trying to find contradictions that aren't there. Yes, there are tons of outreach programs, all geared towards the same goal that drum corps used to have. One of the major musical forms of that outreach is marching band. What exactly doesn't make sense there? The part about marching band "replacing" drum corps. Yes, the experience is in fact unique. Name another youth experience that provides an 80 day tour of the entire country. No drum corps tours for 80 days either. The season is only eight weeks long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 All over the suburbs, perhaps. But competitive marching band is still absent from many of the urban communities that drum corps used to serve. It is also strangely sparse in Massachusetts and Wisconsin, former hotbeds of local drum corps....and of course, Canada. The part about marching band "replacing" drum corps. No drum corps tours for 80 days either. The season is only eight weeks long. Then you're choosing not to read the myriad of posts in which I explain exactly what I'm saying about that. Oh sure. No urban area anywhere in the country was without a drum corps back in the day, ever. This is a pointless argument because you're not actually reading anything I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts