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2012 DCA Rules Congress - Baltimore, MD


Glen

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liz i said my time has passed. it's no insult. but if you can't see the trend that crowds are smaller and so are the corps. well............that's denial. si i said it be fore and i'll say it again. it's no longer my activity. it's yours. so you can do with it as you want. we did in my day. now it's your turn. i will follow olong but not with near as much interest. more of a passing fancy. i mean what's the sense? you want to turn it into something it wasn't intened to be but that's your choice. it was never supposed to be marching band . it was different. now not so much. so i say good luck with that. be a band. then an orchestra. you can play braums. and when there is 2 shows a year and 5 corps you can say look at how good we're doing. just sayin............the hand writing is already on the wall. and i really don't want to hear all the arguments.

Don, there are changes in sports and my grandfather wouldn't recognize basketball anymore and he coached for 25 years before his death. I'm sure though that he would still be interested in the game. Yes it was different, but his love of the game would far overpower his thoughts on the changes.

Yes, there are less shows from when you were involved. At best I think there are maybe only 2 or 3 shows less a season than when I started in '91. Are audiences smaller? For some shows yes, for others, not really. Are there an abundance more choices for people now when it comes to entertainment now? YES. I don't think it has a thing to do with the product on the field. Personally looking at the old videos I think the products being put on the field are far superior to 20 years ago. What I see are peoples dollars and amount of available time spread far thinner. I can't afford to spend the money to go to shows the way I did 5 or 10 years ago. I don't have the amount of time to march I once did. The idea of sitting out in the heat and humidity isn't as appealing. Not when I can pull up just about anything on HULU, or On Demand and sit in the air conditioning and it's free. No gas money, no toll money and no ticket money needs to be spent.

As far as it turning into band, there really wasn't all that fine of a line going back 30 years ago (and I am using that as MY reference point in time). The average folk can't tell the difference. We all get so upset when drum corps is called "the B word" but the very basics of the activity are the same. People play instruments, spin flags and rifles and sabres and march on a field. Band directors, drum corps directors and staffs all intermingle in the activites and have for a long time as well.

In a perfect world we would stop trying to eat our own and support each other in all aspects of the activity. That doesn't mean you have to like it. But talking about its demise isn't going to help the situation in any way either.

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Don, there are changes in sports and my grandfather wouldn't recognize basketball anymore and he coached for 25 years before his death. I'm sure though that he would still be interested in the game. Yes it was different, but his love of the game would far overpower his thoughts on the changes.

Yes, there are less shows from when you were involved. At best I think there are maybe only 2 or 3 shows less a season than when I started in '91. Are audiences smaller? For some shows yes, for others, not really. Are there an abundance more choices for people now when it comes to entertainment now? YES. I don't think it has a thing to do with the product on the field. Personally looking at the old videos I think the products being put on the field are far superior to 20 years ago. What I see are peoples dollars and amount of available time spread far thinner. I can't afford to spend the money to go to shows the way I did 5 or 10 years ago. I don't have the amount of time to march I once did. The idea of sitting out in the heat and humidity isn't as appealing. Not when I can pull up just about anything on HULU, or On Demand and sit in the air conditioning and it's free. No gas money, no toll money and no ticket money needs to be spent.

As far as it turning into band, there really wasn't all that fine of a line going back 30 years ago (and I am using that as MY reference point in time). The average folk can't tell the difference. We all get so upset when drum corps is called "the B word" but the very basics of the activity are the same. People play instruments, spin flags and rifles and sabres and march on a field. Band directors, drum corps directors and staffs all intermingle in the activites and have for a long time as well.

In a perfect world we would stop trying to eat our own and support each other in all aspects of the activity. That doesn't mean you have to like it. But talking about its demise isn't going to help the situation in any way either.

all good points liz. . up till the 80's we didn't have much band involvement. we shunned it in fact . we were different but no matter. all is done now. and so am i.so what ever happens, happens.

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Don, there are changes in sports and my grandfather wouldn't recognize basketball anymore and he coached for 25 years before his death. I'm sure though that he would still be interested in the game. Yes it was different, but his love of the game would far overpower his thoughts on the changes.

Yes, there are less shows from when you were involved. At best I think there are maybe only 2 or 3 shows less a season than when I started in '91. Are audiences smaller? For some shows yes, for others, not really. Are there an abundance more choices for people now when it comes to entertainment now? YES. I don't think it has a thing to do with the product on the field. Personally looking at the old videos I think the products being put on the field are far superior to 20 years ago. What I see are peoples dollars and amount of available time spread far thinner. I can't afford to spend the money to go to shows the way I did 5 or 10 years ago. I don't have the amount of time to march I once did. The idea of sitting out in the heat and humidity isn't as appealing. Not when I can pull up just about anything on HULU, or On Demand and sit in the air conditioning and it's free. No gas money, no toll money and no ticket money needs to be spent.

As far as it turning into band, there really wasn't all that fine of a line going back 30 years ago (and I am using that as MY reference point in time). The average folk can't tell the difference. We all get so upset when drum corps is called "the B word" but the very basics of the activity are the same. People play instruments, spin flags and rifles and sabres and march on a field. Band directors, drum corps directors and staffs all intermingle in the activites and have for a long time as well.

In a perfect world we would stop trying to eat our own and support each other in all aspects of the activity. That doesn't mean you have to like it. But talking about its demise isn't going to help the situation in any way either.

I don't know... Historically Drum Corps was quite different from band and average audiences could tell the difference. In fact there's a thread on the Historical DCI board right now about the Troopers shocking a football audience. Before the 80s most HS bands were not 'corps style' and most were doing a lot of high stepper show band stuff. Drum Corps had distinctive instrumentation and the sound produced was different in tone and quality. Of course since the late 1980s, I would say that the differences have greatly diminished.

Although basketball has changed, the fundamentals of the game: ball/hoop, etc., have not. The elements that make basketball distinctive as a sport remain. However I think that drum corps is in the process of losing that distinctiveness in order to emulate (what I see as) an inferior art from (HS band). I think some of us would like to see the distinctive elements of drum corps be preserved and see it as a safe guard to drum corp's future existence. Following the same exact path as HS band (and DCI for that matter) will only lead to the end of the activity that we all love. Some folks welcome the changes the end of drum corps distinctive elements as they see band as a superior activity, with "better" instrumentation in order to fulfill their artistic dreams.

In reference to number of shows, perhaps many of us see the DCI model as so influential being that a bare fraction of shows remain in comparison to the past. DCI has led the way on the path toward greater similarity to HS band and there the decline of the activity (in terms of performance/entertainment opportunities) is most shocking. If this hasn't happened yet in DCA, it's because of the conservative path followed by the DCA organization. I guess many of us see the amps as a step in the wrong direction.

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I don't know... Historically Drum Corps was quite different from band and average audiences could tell the difference. In fact there's a thread on the Historical DCI board right now about the Troopers shocking a football audience. Before the 80s most HS bands were not 'corps style' and most were doing a lot of high stepper show band stuff. Drum Corps had distinctive instrumentation and the sound produced was different in tone and quality. Of course since the late 1980s, I would say that the differences have greatly diminished.

Although basketball has changed, the fundamentals of the game: ball/hoop, etc., have not. The elements that make basketball distinctive as a sport remain. However I think that drum corps is in the process of losing that distinctiveness in order to emulate (what I see as) an inferior art from (HS band). I think some of us would like to see the distinctive elements of drum corps be preserved and see it as a safe guard to drum corp's future existence. Following the same exact path as HS band (and DCI for that matter) will only lead to the end of the activity that we all love. Some folks welcome the changes the end of drum corps distinctive elements as they see band as a superior activity, with "better" instrumentation in order to fulfill their artistic dreams.

In reference to number of shows, perhaps many of us see the DCI model as so influential being that a bare fraction of shows remain in comparison to the past. DCI has led the way on the path toward greater similarity to HS band and there the decline of the activity (in terms of performance/entertainment opportunities) is most shocking. If this hasn't happened yet in DCA, it's because of the conservative path followed by the DCA organization. I guess many of us see the amps as a step in the wrong direction.

as for the number of show's.........back in the day we did 16-18 show's a year. we did double shows on some weekends. how many shows total do they have now? not many. it's all going away. for what ever the reason is it's all going away. and the cost to corps are getting way to high. that can't be stopped. how much dues are you going to charge before people say i can't do it? in my day we didn't have dues. it's all changed and not for the better. people can deny it all you want but those are the facts. like it or not.

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But in today's world you can't exist if you don't have dues. There aren't enough fundraisers in the world that will cover costs. And less people are participating in fundraisers. I mean as far as spending money on them. At work we had to put a limit on people bringing in their kids' fundraisers because we just can't afford to participate in every single one. I'm sure drum corps' feel the same pinch.

And it isn't just drum corps either. It's school activities and sports. The dollar has been stretched to its limit and yes, it has and will continue to hurt participation. But what really is the other option? Fold completely.....we're sitting on a Catch 22 situation and the answers are not going to be easy.

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as for the number of show's.........back in the day we did 16-18 show's a year. we did double shows on some weekends. how many shows total do they have now? not many. it's all going away. for what ever the reason is it's all going away. and the cost to corps are getting way to high. that can't be stopped. how much dues are you going to charge before people say i can't do it? in my day we didn't have dues. it's all changed and not for the better. people can deny it all you want but those are the facts. like it or not.

Don I was in 74-79 but did a lot of the Red Carpet Assoc shows as we were working or way up. Lot of local shows run by non-DC groups that had been going on for years. What killed a lot of them was the costs to run the show went up mainly (IIRC) because corps needed more prize money to cover bus bills as gas tripled ca 1975/76. So ticket prices had to go up which ended up cutting down on the audience size and the profits to the sponsor went to crap. So less shows meant corps had to go farther which added to the bus bill which.... repeat cycle until collapse. Edit: forgot to mention that these shows usually had smaller audience size and the profit margin was small.

Also went from no dues when I joined to nominal $1 a week around 77/78 which if I hear right was to give the corps some operating finances during the winter.

I'd say a lot of nasty crap centering on costs killed what I fondly remember from my time. And hate to say it I'll go with my dad that I'm surprised that the activity still exists with the high costs of running a corps. Between costs of joining (dues, etc) and time involved I'm (gratefully) surprised that people still do corps.

So guess I'm in between you and Liz. Lot of things were better back during my time but lot of heavy duty crap happened since and.... well we got what we got.... and my hope is DCA concentraits of costs to corps in their rule changes. Especially since IMO costs are the main (but not only) reason for loss of the local scene.

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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There are changes.......

Yes, there are less shows from when you were involved.

As far as it turning into band,......

In a perfect world we would stop trying to eat our own.....

But talking about its demise isn't going to help the situation in any way either.

LE50;

"there are changes in sports and my grandfather wouldn't recognize basketball anymore and he coached for 25 years before his death. I'm sure though that he would still be interested in the game. Yes it was different, but his love of the game would far overpower his thoughts on the changes."

Well lets see. Basketball: still 5 players, same size Ball, 2pt basket-1pt foul shot, same type unies, Etc. (only 3pt Long shot basket, and shot clock.)

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"Yes, there are less shows from when you were involved. At best I think there are maybe only 2 or 3 shows less a season ......."

Heck Newark Schools Stadium, or Clifton Stadium, or Roosevelt Stadium, EACH had more than 2 shows a year. (Newark S.S. alone had at least 4 EVERY YEAR. and Clift. S had 2 and Roosev. S - 2 or 3) and that is Just 3. places. And! lets not forget that OTHER shows took place the same day within 25 miles of those on the same day Every year.

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" I don't think it has a thing to do with the product on the field. Personally looking at the old videos I think the products being put on the field are far superior to 20 years ago. What I see are peoples dollars and amount of available time spread far thinner. I can't afford to spend the money to go to shows the way I did 5 or 10 years ago. I don't have the amount of time to march I once did. The idea of sitting out in the heat and humidity isn't as appealing. Not when I can pull up just about anything on HULU, or On Demand and sit in the air conditioning and it's free. No gas money, no toll money and no ticket money needs to be spent"

Yes and no to this. The TALENT on the field is in deed Far better. But what they do with that talent is a problem to many. Then telling people if they do not LIKE what is done, "Don't Go", is harldly the best way to win over people. I think most of the people who don't like the "New DCI" way just have their own OPINION. And like me stay home. It does not mean what is done is: Not Good, BAD, WRONG, Evil or anything. Just a matter of Taste. Just a matter of: You like This, and I like That. Why would You or I spend money on something we do not like? Yes, money for things like this is getting smaller. BUT, with the price of Tickets and all. Not getting what you want, for that extra little money must be looked at. Yes sitting home works for you. (and I must say I also) BUT that, does Not Help the Show Sponsor. Fewer people in seats means Less Profit, and a chance that a show may disappear.

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"We all get so upset when drum corps is called "the B word" .

To be honest. It is it the "New DCI" people that have a problem with the "BAND" word? Once a very few more changes are made things will be a "Band" in every way possible. Except in name. I say look at that "Riverside C C Band". I found them to be Terrific, Enjoyed it very much. So much so. I went and looked at 4 more od their vids. Yet, I do Not care for DCI very much.

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"But talking about its demise isn't going to help the situation in any way either."

Well as for me. I am just saying that DCA as most of us knew / know it, will be gone. It will be a part of DCI. A seperate Division. AND, why not. The only problem is that ONE Division will allow people - over 22 (the current cut off age of DCI). Maybe have a "Weekends Only" Division.

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BUT !!! To each their Own. Be Happy and Enjoy what YOU want.

Like "The Don". To me it is now just something of interest that I follow.

Like an old girl friend. She may have gone on to marry, some Doctor or Lawyer and be Very Happy. Good I am glad for her.

But, I know I am happy with the Wife I have in Everyway possible.

I bet. Both the ex girl friend and I BOTH, think we got the best of things.

Edited by 2B or not 2B
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Don I was in 74-79 but did a lot of the Red Carpet Assoc shows as we were working or way up. Lot of local shows run by non-DC groups that had been going on for years. What killed a lot of them was the costs to run the show went up mainly (IIRC) because corps needed more prize money to cover bus bills as gas tripled ca 1975/76. So ticket prices had to go up which ended up cutting down on the audience size and the profits to the sponsor went to crap. So less shows meant corps had to go farther which added to the bus bill which.... repeat cycle until collapse. Edit: forgot to mention that these shows usually had smaller audience size and the profit margin was small.

Also went from no dues when I joined to nominal $1 a week around 77/78 which if I hear right was to give the corps some operating finances during the winter.

I'd say a lot of nasty crap centering on costs killed what I fondly remember from my time. And hate to say it I'll go with my dad that I'm surprised that the activity still exists with the high costs of running a corps. Between costs of joining (dues, etc) and time involved I'm (gratefully) surprised that people still do corps.

So guess I'm in between you and Liz. Lot of things were better back during my time but lot of heavy duty crap happened since and.... well we got what we got.... and my hope is DCA concentraits of costs to corps in their rule changes. Especially since IMO costs are the main (but not only) reason for loss of the local scene.

I hate responding to myself but thought of something on the drive back from the store....

Think one of the reasons why I don't get that wound about the changes is a big experience I had in the 90s. Was raised in a city Lutheran church that like a lot (most?) mainstream city churches have hit the skids from when they had a lot of members and income (sound familiar?). Ours got bad enough fiding people to do things that I ended up on council for 6 years (max allowed) and VP (yeah me... :shutup: ) for some of that time. While VP I got to attend a conference on why city churches were going down the crapper and what can be done about it. Why - the churches went downhill as the cities went downhill as people skeedadled to the 'burbs. <lot of details that can't rememebr all right now> What can be done... NOTHING!!! except try to do the best you can with what's left and (in my words) hold on if you can if that's a good option. Lot of differing opinions on the conference which sound like a lot of the opinions here.

Didn't put it together with DC until I started reading the History of DC books and read why a lot of corps are no longer with us. Lot of those gone corps hit the same problems as the city churches (loss of money, people, volunteers/helpers, rising costs, other options, etc). Just wish the conference had handouts as would love to do a full treatment of this but... my memory sucks a bit.....

And no I didn't take this news so well when I heard it but over the years guess I'm just more numb to stuff I can't change. And realizing it ain't just drum corps does make a difference.

Edited by JimF-LowBari
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No Gary, it was about having a legitimate discussion regarding the DCA Rules Congress without insults and snarky responses. But you missed that part obviously. So I will give you a snarky response back. The Rules Congress passed these new rules which will take effect in 2014, so yes this conversation IS about the way things are trending currently within the organization. You want to have a conversation about how much you think it sucks, start your own thread.

I kinda thought discussions allowed for dialog on both sides of the issue,.......ergo,.......a discussion,.........sheesh :shutup:

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