THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

[84BDsop]

I believe the SCV account is also incorrect as to when the 2 overage guys left. As I was told by a member of the tenor line, Gail found out during a rehearsal and told them they might want to be gone before the corps proper found out.

Those 2 lied to everyone...SCV was determined not to be at fault, as they had been fooled as well.

The Muchachos situation sounds more like a soap opera bit of childish spite.

[Northern Thunder]

I believe the SCV account is also incorrect as to when the 2 overage guys left. As I was told by a member of the tenor line, Gail found out during a rehearsal and told them they might want to be gone before the corps proper found out.

Those 2 lied to everyone...SCV was determined not to be at fault, as they had been fooled as well.

I'm rather surprised that he (DeLucia) somehow believes SCV should have been dq'd. There were international laws broken in that case, which SCV had NOTHING to do with!

Edited February 18, 2013 by Northern Thunder

[BRASSO]

SCV was determined not to be at fault

You got that part correct anyway.

Disqualification from participation in the Finals is not supposed to be determined by " ignorance ". The Corps has the ultimate responsibility to do their due diligence and see to it that no marcher marches until they are are absolutely certain that marcher qualifies as both... TWO... here clearly did not. If a Corps has utlized overage members in competition in DCI at anytime during the season, similar to the Muchachos, they are to be disqualified once that becomes known to DCI. SCV was not disqualified however once it came to light as they should have been, as Muchachos were in their case. DCI Hall of Famer Dennis Deluca here has it right regarding the misapplication and unfairness of the rules regarding the Hawthorne Muchachos and the Santa Clara Vanguard. He is also correct that half the Corps in 1975 utilized overage marchers, but only the Muchachos in 1975 were disqualified from their participation at the DCI Finals in Philadelphia after their prelims performance ( where they might have won it all... we'll never know... same as SCV did in '89 )

Edited February 15, 2013 by BRASSO

[N.E. Brigand]

Interesting title:

THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

For those of us that were there, we all have a different perspective. Think of the parable of the 4 blind men who try to describe an elephant based on touch:

It's a rope (the tail)

It's a tree (a leg)

It's a snake (the trunk)

It's a wall (the torso)

Some things Dennis said are accurate. Some are distorted. Some are unintentionally false. There are some omissions that would give a clearer picture.

Paul Milano wrote an extensive description of the events at prelims in a forum thread about 10 years ago.

Any chance you have a link to the that description? Or do you remember what has been omitted/distorted/false in this version?

[N.E. Brigand]

Disqualification from participation in the Finals is not supposed to be determined by "ignorance". The Corps has the ultimate responsibility to do their due diligence and see to it that no marcher marches until they are are absolutely certain that marcher qualifies as both--TWO--here clearly did not.

I have read that those two overage SCV '89 members had submitted forged identification to the corps. What counts as "due diligence" for a corps in that situation? Were all corps expected to engage law enforcement to verify that identification documents were legitimate?

If a Corps has utilized overage members in competition in DCI at anytime during the season, similar to the Muchachos, they are to be disqualified once that becomes known to DCI.

What does that mean, though? If a corps marches an overage member in the first show of the season, and let's say it's their own fault for not checking the paperwork carefully, but they realize it the next day, expel the member, and report themselves to DCI: is the corps then out of competition for the rest of the season? Or do they just lose the score already earned? That is to say: SCV discovered the overage members just before Prelims, wasn't it? Meaning that the worst that ought to have happened was that they'd have to compete first?

DCI Hall of Famer Dennis Delucia here has it right regarding the misapplication and unfairness of the rules regarding the Hawthorne Muchachos and the Santa Clara Vanguard.

Is there no difference between intentionally flouting the rules, as Delucia acknowledges "the Boss" did when he ignored the letter from DCI, and doing all you can to obey the rules, as SCV seems to have done in 1989?

He is also correct that half the Corps in 1975 utilized overage marchers, but only the Muchachos in 1975 were disqualified from their participation at the DCI Finals in Philadelphia after their prelims performance.

I agree this is most unfair.

[Michael Boo]

A few of my thoughts, as I was there for part of this.

22. "Tommy" did march timpani in Cavaliers. I never knew he had auditioned for Muchachos.

23: I remember "Tommy" telling staff that he knew of multiple members who were over-age. I never heard the personal grudge element.

26: "Tommy" didn't hide behind adults. He was surrounded by fellow Cavaliers as Muchachos came off the field at World Open Finals. This was a year the show was not at the Manning Bowl, but at the stadium in Everett. Don Warren expressed that he was troubled that he now knew of potential over-age members, and I sensed he felt a moral obligation to look into it. I was one of the few Cavaliers that were asked to surround Tommy and one of our bus drivers as Muchachos came off the field in Finals. The bus driver had a camera. "Tommy" stated he believed there were multiple over-age members, but when the corps came off the field, he was unable to point on more than the Roto-tom player and I clearly remember him being upset that he couldn't find the others during the quick passage of the corps out of the stadium after their performance. The bus driver followed the Roto-tom player and snapped a photo of him.

27. The bus driver was not a father and had no connection at all with the corps, other than being the bus driver assigned by the charter company to drive for the tour.

28. That is correct.

29. Ironically, Cavaliers were on just after Muchachos in the 1975 DCI World Championships Prelims. Here's what I remember, and these memories are still stunningly clear due to where I was in the corps line-up as we left the field. As we left the field, we were stopped (for reasons I don't remember) at the edge of the Franklin Field infield. As clear as I remember what I had for lunch, I was within ten feet of Don Pesceone and Jim Jones, director of Troopers, (who were sitting in 13th place). Jones had the DCI rule book in his hand and had it opened to a specific page. He was emphatically pointing out to Pesceone that the rules clearly stated that proof of over-age members necessitated a corps' disqualification. Muchachos had finished their show only 15 minutes before we had. Pesceone may well have went to the parking lot with Warren...I wasn't there for that. But he was certainly back in the stadium with Jones by the time we left the field.

30. I was never aware of any bad feelings contributing to the decision. I do remember Don Warren talking to us about what happened and asking us to put ourselves in the shoes of the members of Muchachos and to not joke or gloat about it. He appeared pained and was taking no personal satisfaction in being involved in the scenario.

Epilogue #2: The two over-aged members of the 1989 Santa Clara Vanguard were British nationals who forged their birth certificates and presented those forged certificates when they came into the United States...a federal crime. SCV thoroughly checked out all the birth certificates of their members and did not pick up on any discrepancies...but then, if the immigration authorities didn't, how would they do so? As soon as Gail Royer found out about the members, he threw them out of the corps and decided to march Finals with two holes. It seems to me the big difference in the two scenarios is Muchachos management and staff knew about having over-age members, while SCV management and staff, despite due diligence, had no idea. That's why the decision was made to not disqualify SCV. The organization was in part a victim of the circumstance...not an accomplice.

[flammaster]

I feel really bad for anyone who decided to hurt them self. :-(

[Michael Boo]

I've long wondered what people associated with Madison Scouts thought when Jeff Kievet (or so I was told it was him) played the bull fight call from the stands just as Scouts were ready to start their performance in Finals. Does anyone have a handle on that?

[IllianaLancerContra]

A few of my thoughts, as I was there for part of this.

22. "Tommy" did march timpani in Cavaliers. I never knew he had auditioned for Muchachos.

23: I remember "Tommy" telling staff that he knew of multiple members who were over-age. I never heard the personal grudge element.

26: "Tommy" didn't hide behind adults. He was surrounded by fellow Cavaliers as Muchachos came off the field at World Open Finals. This was a year the show was not at the Manning Bowl, but at the stadium in Everett. Don Warren expressed that he was troubled that he now knew of potential over-age members, and I sensed he felt a moral obligation to look into it. I was one of the few Cavaliers that were asked to surround Tommy and one of our bus drivers as Muchachos came off the field in Finals. The bus driver had a camera. "Tommy" stated he believed there were multiple over-age members, but when the corps came off the field, he was unable to point on more than the Roto-tom player and I clearly remember him being upset that he couldn't find the others during the quick passage of the corps out of the stadium after their performance. The bus driver followed the Roto-tom player and snapped a photo of him.

27. The bus driver was not a father and had no connection at all with the corps, other than being the bus driver assigned by the charter company to drive for the tour.

28. That is correct.

29. Ironically, Cavaliers were on just after Muchachos in the 1975 DCI World Championships Prelims. Here's what I remember, and these memories are still stunningly clear due to where I was in the corps line-up as we left the field. As we left the field, we were stopped (for reasons I don't remember) at the edge of the Franklin Field infield. As clear as I remember what I had for lunch, I was within ten feet of Don Pesceone and Jim Jones, director of Troopers, (who were sitting in 13th place). Jones had the DCI rule book in his hand and had it opened to a specific page. He was emphatically pointing out to Pesceone that the rules clearly stated that proof of over-age members necessitated a corps' disqualification. Muchachos had finished their show only 15 minutes before we had. Pesceone may well have went to the parking lot with Warren...I wasn't there for that. But he was certainly back in the stadium with Jones by the time we left the field.

30. I was never aware of any bad feelings contributing to the decision. I do remember Don Warren talking to us about what happened and asking us to put ourselves in the shoes of the members of Muchachos and to not joke or gloat about it. He appeared pained and was taking no personal satisfaction in being involved in the scenario.

Epilogue #2: The two over-aged members of the 1989 Santa Clara Vanguard were British nationals who forged their birth certificates and presented those forged certificates when they came into the United States...a federal crime. SCV thoroughly checked out all the birth certificates of their members and did not pick up on any discrepancies...but then, if the immigration authorities didn't, how would they do so? As soon as Gail Royer found out about the members, he threw them out of the corps and decided to march Finals with two holes. It seems to me the big difference in the two scenarios is Muchachos management and staff knew about having over-age members, while SCV management and staff, despite due diligence, had no idea. That's why the decision was made to not disqualify SCV. The organization was in part a victim of the circumstance...not an accomplice.

I take it that this was not the 'deaf, dumb, and blind kid "Tommy"'. I guess if he was he would have had a hard time pointing out the perp...

Concerning your surrounding of Tommy - maybe D.D. thought you looked old for your age...

It is interesting how several individuals witnessing the same event from different angles see the same events differently, or maybe better phrased ..remember the same events with different details.

I still wonder about the murder conviction of 'the boss' - can anyone envision a corps today with a convicted felon, let alone a murderer, run a youth organization / corps? Granted, he had paid his debt to society (hence his release), but, as I said before - Golly.

[Fran Haring]

I've long wondered what people associated with Madison Scouts thought when Jeff Kievet (or so I was told it was him) played the bull fight call from the stands just as Scouts were ready to start their performance in Finals. Does anyone have a handle on that?

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out where the Scouts "fell apart" at Finals that night... as a guy on one of the FB groups has insisted.