THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

[Michael Boo]

I'll accept Michael that in 1975 you marched Cavaliers in the World Open at Everett Ma ( not Lynn ), as there is conflicting data on this, but if you distinctly recall it, then I 'll accept it.

Moving forward, can we assume that " Tommy " who was cut from the Muchachos drumline ( according to DCI Hall of Famer, Dennis Delucia ) knew the name of at least one person in the Muchachos (drumline) that was overage, was going to march in 1975 with the Muchachos, and upon arrival with the Cavaliers in the winter of 1975, " Tommy " knew that the Muchachos were going to march this overage member ?

Do we agree that the Cavaaliers were fighting for a top 12 Finalist spot in 1975 come August ( according to Delucia ) ? Cavaliers did finish 11th at prelims after outing the Muchachos overage marcher, and had Muchachos score at prelims been entered the Cavaliers would have sat in that last finalist spot... 12th.... with not much wiggle room ?

Knowing these two things, can you see how outsiders can look at this and see how at the very least the timing of all this was very suspect ? " Tommy " certainly made aware to the Cavaliers his intimate knowledge that Muchachos had at least one overage marcher back before the season began..... someone he befriended and someone he marched right alongside with when he was in the Muchcachos drumline. So the Cavalers certainly did not have to wait until a couple of days before the DCI championship Prelims to rat out the overage marcher in the Muchachos to DCI HQ. The Cavaliers knew other Corps had overage marchers ( some right in their backyard ) and Paul Milano admits as such. What the Muchachos did with knowingly utilizing overage marcher(s) is wrong and required disqualification, no question about it, imo... but the TIMING of the Cavaliers move, right before Finals, knowing where they sat in placement rank that year a few days before Championships, and knowing they had this info before the season began, does sort of rankle people a bit, Michael.

Thank you. I not only recall it, but I wrote about it in the 1975 Cavaliers yearbook that is sitting on my desk at the moment.

We were not aware we were "fighting" for a top-12 position. Coming in 11th in Prelims was a HUGE shock. Coming in 8th in Finals seemed more like what we expected. We were only 1.40 under Blue Stars and 4.85 under SCV at the Verdun (Montreal) show August 12. (SCV 90.05, Blue Stars 96.60, Cavaliers 85.20) We had no idea that small gap would open significantly just three days later in Philadelphia, when the corps would be 7.35 under SCV in Prelims. So, respectfully, I don't agree with the assertion that Cavaliers knew the corps was going to be near the bubble, because I know it sure came as a surprise to me.

I also remember "Tommy" was not in the corps in the winter. I believe he came in either just prior to the season or at the beginning of it. His arrival meant I didn't have to march a timpani after the mallet player from the year before came back just before the season began, so I moved to a horn hole on baritone and actually played a number of spots in the show the first half of tour. (Unfortunately, I was in a French Horn hole and when a horn was returned mid-season from the year before, I was given the French Horn and told I'd be marching with that the rest of the season. I had terrible French Horn lips.)

I never knew that "Tommy" had been cut from Muchachos. Perhaps I'm the only one that wasn't aware of that. I don't remember anyone talking about that. It was a surprise to read that in DeLucia's comments. I'll have to read the other comments others have referred to to see what others in the corps knew about that. (Those comments were not written by a 1975 marcher, but by someone who was helping out in management who aged out in 1974.)

You mentioned, "So the Cavalers certainly did not have to wait until a couple of days before the DCI championship Prelims to rat out the overage marcher in the Muchachos to DCI HQ." World Open Prelims was an entire week before DCI Prelims. (And can we use the word "identify" rather than the words "rat out" that you've also used in an earlier posting? That doesn't colorize the fact as much.) The corps, however, did have to wait until it was at a same show as Muchachos...and that was World Open.

The whole thing with Pesceone and Jones that I described having witnessed was prior to when Muchachos's scores would have typically been announced, as they were the corps on right before us...and way before we would have heard our own scores.

I do remember hearing that a Midwest corps had overage members, and I remember Don Warren saying he wanted to clean up the activity. I was told in a conversation with him later that our corps could never get any proof who the members were, what their names were, or if then had actually marched any shows. All that was necessary to provide proper info to DCI. (The day after the 1977 DCI Finals in Denver, I requested the opportunity to go to dinner with Warren. I had quite an extensive conversation with him during that time, and I had the chance to ask some questions I'd long wondered about.)

I can certainly understand "how outsiders can look at this and see how at the very least the timing of all this was very suspect?" And that's why I wish to present what I remember. Thanks for the opportunity to allow me to do so.

[Michael Boo]

Only if you consider 3-4 miles " many ", but not to quibble, its a minor point.

It was many miles the way our buses took to get there. (We kept getting lost.)

[Northern Thunder]

While the OP is certainly interesting, I hope that one day someone from Muchacho's side of the story will be able to discuss openly and honestly without hiding names and sources, without making unfounded accusations, and without the victim complex. Guys from the other side of the story certainly seem to be to do this. As a neutral party with an intense interest in the history of drum corps it would be great to have trustworthy accounts from both sides of the incident.

There was quite a discussion back in 2007 on Sound Machine. Names are named, so parental discretion is advised.

I will not post the direct link here, but a search will reveal this page quite easily.

[mobrien]

Do we agree that the Cavaliers were fighting for a top 12 Finalist spot in 1975 come August ( according to Dennis Delucia ) ?

Looking at the scores from that season, it would have appeared that Cavaliers should have felt pretty comfortable going into prelims that they would make the Saturday night show. Their scores in early August put them right in a block that included Kilts and Regiment (and at the World Open prelims, they were only 3 points behind Muchachos, even though M's were considered one of the only two corps who had a shot of knocking off Madison that year).

So there goes that part of the argument.

Paul Milano's article mentions that the Cavaliers had information, but no proof, that Blue Stars were marching overage too, and that if they'd had something concrete, they would have used it. They couldn't get something incontrovertible, so they let it go. Muchachos, on the other hand....

1975 was a year in which DCI was becoming a much more legitimate organization. It was the first year for Finals being on live television, it was a year in which the DCI brand really started to be accepted as the last word in what junior drum corps could be. In a situation in which the profile of DCI was growing, it was important to finally show the activity that they were serious about enforcing eligibility rules. As to Muchachos being singled out, probably not. Again, referencing the Milano article, Blue Stars were also suspected and would have been nailed, and they, unlike Muchachos, had been one of the founding organizations, with their director an enthusiastic leader of DCI in its earliest days. So the "DCI hated the Muchachos" thing doesn't necessarily wash.

It's unfortunate that DeLucia cites SCV's experience in being conned by a couple scammers as being somehow analogous to Muchachos dq. Royer and his corps were the victims in that case, not the perpetrators, as was the case with Hawthorne's leadership.

Edited February 16, 2013 by mobrien

[BRASSO]

I never knew that "Tommy" had been cut from Muchachos. Perhaps I'm the only one that wasn't aware of that. I don't remember anyone talking about that. It was a surprise to read that in DeLucia's comments. I'll have to read the other comments others have referred to to see what others in the corps knew about that. (Those comments were not written by a 1975 marcher, but by someone who was helping out in management who aged out in 1974.)

Dennis Delucia would probably know best that " Tommy " was cut from the Muchachos drumline, as Dennis more than likely made that decision himself, as he was the Muchachos Lead Percussion Instructor at the time.

Scoring volatility was MUCH more prevalent in the 70's... Corps went up and down in score and placements a lot. This is even evident in the Cavaliers moving up 3 placements from prelims to finals there in '75. So the Cavs were in no position to consider their ranking position in '75 as a lock to make Finals, but agree with you that they had a good chance there of not being overtaken, and not making it, especially if the Muchachos were about to be disqualified..... why didn't the Cavs pursue " Tommy's " info back before the first competition in '75, Michael ? Do you know ? It seems to me that the Cavs could have relayed the info to DCI back before the season started, and DCI could have made the Muchachos produce the needed documentation right then and there and made them remove him once it was determined that he was overage,... no ?

Edited February 16, 2013 by BRASSO

[Michael Boo]

Dennis Delucia would probably know best that " Tommy " was cut from the Muchachos drumline, as Dennis more than likely made that decision himself, as he was the Muchachos Lead Percussion Instructor at the time.

Scoring volatility was MUCH more prevalent in the 70's... Corps went up and down in score and placements a lot. This is even evident in the Cavaliers moving up 3 placements from prelims to finals there in '75. So the Cavs were in no position to consider their ranking position in '75 as a lock to make Finals, but agree with you that they had a good chance there of not being overtaken, and not making it..... why didn't the Cavs pursue " Tommy's " info back before the first competition in '75, Michael ? Do you know ? It seems to me that the Cavs could have relayed the info to DCI back before the season started, and DCI could have made the Muchachos produce the needed documentation right then and there and made them remove him once it was determined that he was overage,... no ?

I just gave you a green plus when I meant to hit "reply."

Anyhow...My understanding was there had to be proof that an overage marcher actually marched in a DCI show. To get that proof, they would have had to be identified, which was done with the photograph. How could it be proven that an overage marcher marched a DCI show before the season even began? My memory of the events is that "Tommy" didn't tell the corps what he knew until sometime during the season. The following is speculation on my part...Perhaps someone informed him of the fact after the season began? I don't know. I don't remember how he knew or how he found out. I still don't remember knowing he was cut from the corps...not doubting that he was...I was just never aware of that.

I never heard any angst expressed by fellow corps members that we might not be in Finals. The placement of 11th in Prelims came as a shock. (Those who weren't around back then may not realize that sometimes, corps never saw each other in competition until Finals, if the event that both corps made it in.)

Also, as far as having a corps remove someone during the season...back then, many, many shows were not yet part of the DCI structure. Today, every show is a DCI show in some manner. Back then, far fewer shows yet had the DCI imprimatur. A lot of shows were still independent.

I don't know if a subject like this will ever achieve consensus from everyone. Judging by how we can't all agree on stuff happening today, I doubt it.

But it makes for great discussion. Thank you for providing me a chance to share what I know and remember from my first year in the activity.

[BRASSO]

I just gave you a green plus when I meant to hit "reply."

No problem.. I rectified your mistake by giving you a " green " before reading what came after that ( haha )

[BRASSO]

I just gave you a green plus when I meant to hit "reply."

Anyhow...My understanding was there had to be proof that an overage marcher actually marched in a DCI show. To get that proof, they would have had to be identified, which was done with the photograph.

hmmn... I hear you, but I don't know about that. First off, DCI disqualified the Muchachos based upon the inability of the marcher to produce a verifiable birth certificate, not the lack of a photo. While lack of the production of a birth certificate might not neccessarily preclude one from becoming a future President, it is sufficient enough to disbar a Corps from marching in DCI and to be officially noted as disqualified in the record books. The Muchachos were disqualified, not becuse of " the photo " but because when DCI was informed, they were not interested in a " photo " of him, they just needed his NAME for them to request his simple birth certificate upon their request to determine his eligibility to march or ineligility. Thus, its not very plausable to suggest that the Cavs needed a photo to trigger the inquest by DCI, as his name provided to DCI alone could have triggered the simple request for the Muchachos to produce his birth certificate.

Also, not to change the subject... but do you know if ALL the placements and scores of the Santa Clara Vanguard in 1989, prior to Championship week have been thrown out of the records books ? or at the very least, an asterisk put beside their score and placements for all their competitions in 1989 ? The reason I ask is that... knowingly or unknowingly... the Santa Clara Vanguard broke the competition rules and competed with 2 overage members throughout 98% of that 1989 season. If the NCAA finds out that a school's athletic team broke the competition rules by using ineligible player(s), they automatically vacate ALL of that season's wins, whether the Coaches in that program knew about their use of the ineligible player(s) or not.

Edited February 16, 2013 by BRASSO

[Fran Haring]

The ###### show was held in Everett at Everett Memorial Stadium! The Manning Bowl was closed for a year due to renovations. Don't make me come over there.

It was a one-year deal due to the renovations at the Manning Bowl. When we went to World Open in 1976, it was a totally different place. The World Open in 1975 was plopped right in a residential area of houses right behind the main stands. The stadium was practically in people's back yards. I wrote about that in Cavaliers' 1975 yearbook, my first corps writing experience.

What Mike said.

My junior corps... Sacred Heart Crusaders from NJ... competed in the World Open class B Prelims in 1975. And it was most definitely NOT at the Manning Bowl.

We then watched the Class A Prelims. That show also was most definitely NOT at the Manning Bowl.

I marched at the Manning Bowl for the World Open in 1971, 1972, 1973 and 1976... and then with the Sunrisers all-age corps at least one year, at the Boston Cup show. (1980... and I believe the show was also held there in 1981.)

I know what the freakin' Manning Bowl looked like. And the stadium I marched in at the World Open in 1975 was not the Manning Bowl.

Enough of you, Brasso. Go back to the Tour of Champions thread.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Fran Haring

[Fran Haring]

As I'm writing this, I've got my 1975 Cavaliers yearbook opened up in front of me. In the article I wrote about tour, I mention, "The show was held in a stadium in Everett, Mass. Everett was many miles outside of Boston and we had to go through Boston to get there. (I mentioned earlier in the 9-page article that we were staying at Keefe Tech HS in Framingham, MA.) The field was in terrible shape and the stadium appeared to be rather small."

It rained pretty much all week in the days leading up to the show weekend that year. Rehearsing in a chilly rain is no fun. LOL.

And I remember the field on the day of our show (Class B Prelims) was a mess. The middle of the field resembled a mudbath.

And my corps really sucked that day. "Horrible performance" would be an understatement.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Fran Haring