THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

[Fran Haring]

I was under the impression that there is no '75 full show video Prelims performance of the Hawthorne Muchachos in Philly anywhere in existence. Are you sure that video in your closet is a video of the '75 Hawthorne Muchachos FULL SHOW Philly PRELIMS performance ? Just asking, mind you.

This reminds me of the movie "Goundhog Day."

[mobrien]

There's a partial video recording of the '75 prelims show from Philly out there. Picks up in "Pines of Rome" and goes most of the way through the rest of the show, if not completely to the end (it's been awhile since I've watched it). It's single cam, shot from what appears to be the press box. Sound quality is bad - at one point, you get some Elvis in the background - but like the Zapruder film, quality isn't as important as the historical interest.

Ken Kobold's stereo audio recording from prelims is also out there, and can be found without too much trouble. I could believe DeLucia's claim that they beat SCV in drums that day, since the show was very clean, and they beat Vanguard the week before by a decent spread, but then you have to factor in that Muchachos were also marching with at least one overage member in the line, so couldn't legitimately "win" anything.

Edited February 18, 2013 by mobrien

[JimF-LowBari]

I've long wondered what people associated with Madison Scouts thought when Jeff Kievet (or so I was told it was him) played the bull fight call from the stands just as Scouts were ready to start their performance in Finals. Does anyone have a handle on that?

Was that when it happened? I was thinking during retreat but probably confused with Mrs Rayburns question "When do they play Taps?" which was asked during retreat (I think, been a while)....

As for fromthepressbox and corpsreps not being 100% accurate. In the middle of compiling shows and corps appearances (parades, standstills, etc) and finding oops and oh ####s everywhere and some errors appear to be copied from other sources. Including Drum Corps News writers, History of DC books(1978 AL) and DCA itself (confusion with Quebec Les Diplomates and Johnsonburg, PA Diplomats). As with any historical reference be prepared to have more than one answer to a question. (And will check what I have for WO location.)

Edited February 18, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[Ghost]

Pope Pesceone I.

And he and his family would have access to the Vaticans coffers!

[BRASSO]

you have to factor in that Muchachos were also marching with at least one overage member in the line, so couldn't legitimately "win" anything.

If we apply this standard, then logically we'd be compelled to to say that the SCV did not " win anything in 1989 " either. I like SCV, and their 1989 show is one of my favorites of all time. But they marched that year with TWO overage members... for 98% of the year. Seeding for the Championships is done by previous scores and placements. Those were fraudulent scores and placements as SCV marched illegal marchers under the DCI rules.

The NCAA vacates ALL of a teams wins when it is determined that a college team played an ineligible player (S). It matters not if the coaches were unaware that they had ineligible players playing for them either. The NCAA does not care what the Coaches knew or did not know. The team is stripped of ALL their wins... scores... and placements.. for that season for the use of an ineligible player(s). Period.

Edited February 18, 2013 by BRASSO

[Michael Boo]

Was that when it happened? I was thinking during retreat but probably confused with Mrs Rayburns question "When do they play Taps?" which was asked during retreat (I think, been a while)....

As for fromthepressbox and corpsreps not being 100% accurate. In the middle of compiling shows and corps appearances (parades, standstills, etc) and finding oops and oh ####s everywhere and some errors appear to be copied from other sources. Including Drum Corps News writers, History of DC books(1978 AL) and DCA itself (confusion with Quebec Les Diplomates and Johnsonburg, PA Diplomats). As with any historical reference be prepared to have more than one answer to a question. (And will check what I have for WO location.)

Chris Maher of corpsreps.com has always been receptive to hearing about corrections. I often find things to be corrected or added when I do a weekly article on another website, and Chris never fails to send a thank you note when I send in the corrections or additions. I encourage all who find such entries in need of correction to send them in to Chris.

[mobrien]

If we apply this standard, then logically we'd be compelled to to say that the SCV did not " win anything in 1989 " either. I like SCV, and their 1989 show is one of my favorites of all time. But they marched that year with TWO overage members... for 98% of the year.

The players in question faked their eligibility to a level that literally rose to federal offense. There has never been any suggestion that anyone in Vanguard's staff was aware of their fraud.

In the case of Muchachos, management was complicit in the illegality. Apples and oranges.

Edited February 18, 2013 by mobrien

[scottgordon]

By contrast, We have NO videos of the full performance of the 1975 Muchachos from that season anywhere in existence.

That is not true, there are two known videotapes of the 1975 Muchachos:

DCW sells a video of the 1975 Muchachos, and it is of their FULL performance in Philly the day after DCI:

http://www.drumcorpsworld.com/?wpsc-product=197419751976-dci-highlights-on-dvd

Whomever operated the camera did a decent job of panning and zooming a few sections, such as during the drumline feature. I am the one who restored it for release, along with the rest of the Jim Jones EIAJ open-reel video library, that is gradually making its way into products like this.

There is also a bootleg copy of the 1975 Prelims performance that pops up on eBay now and then. It stops right before the last push, sadly. The original tape from which that bootleg was made, is currently in my possession. Sadly, it seems that tape has been in many hands, and has been dubbed by a number of dubious methods. Because, the first portion of it has been permanently damaged since the eBay bootleg was made. The last production is in outstanding condition, however, and I included it on the video set linked above (its in the "making of" documentary included on the DVD). The quality of my partial dub is significantly better than the bootlegs out there, and I am very sad that I didn't have access to this tape before it was damaged... naturally it would have been desireable to have the entire performance restored in the virtually pristine condition I was able to achieve for the final few minutes.

A previous poster was correct in that the sound from the prelim tape is less than stellar. And yes he is right that Elvis can be heard(!) It seems that there was some sort of interference that was causing a local radio transmission to make its way into the mic feed. It's not horrible - the radio is only heard during silent sections when the mic's auto-level kicks in. I could have synched up the Ken Kobold tape with it, but thought it better to keep the original sound intact, since it too is of some historic interest, being a recording of the 1975 Muchachos from a different angle.

By contrast, the audio from the Philly complete show is excellent.

It is sad that the Muchachos weren't allowed to compete at finals, since then we would have a multi-angle full color video preservation of their wonderful show. But the Philly video is complete, widely available, and not bad at all.

[BRASSO]

The players in question faked their eligibility to a level that literally rose to federal offense. There has never been any suggestion that anyone in Vanguard's staff was aware of their fraud.

In the case of Muchachos, management was complicit in the illegality. Apples and oranges.

The fact that the Muchachos apparently were shown to be complicit in the illegality, while ( as far as we know )the SCV staff was unaware that 2 of their marching members were illegal and marched DCI illegally would not matter if this was the NCAA ...and most other youth competitive organizations for that matter. There is the timely saying that " ignorance before the laws, rules and the circumstances is no excuse ". So while we naturally sympathize with the fact that SCV staff apparently were unaware that they were breaking the rules in 1989, the NCAA would have stripped them of ALL their scores, placements in 1989. Thats because knowingly or unknowingly, they utlized ineligible marchers throughout 98% of the 1989 season and heading into the Championships week they received the advantaged seeding that it is speculative at best they would have received had they not marched the two illegal marchers all season long. The NCAA certainly does not care if a Coach knows or does not know his players are illegal as to what penalties it imposes on THE TEAM. The penalty is forfeiture of ALL competitive scores, placements, wins, etc in both circumstances for the team, so to them, it is irrelevent as to whether or not those in charge knew of the breaking of the rules or not. Just sayin'

Edited February 18, 2013 by BRASSO

[Rifuarian]

The fact that the Muchachos apparently were shown to be complicit in the illegality, while ( as far as we know )the SCV staff was unaware that 2 of their marching members were illegal and marched DCI illegally would not matter if this was the NCAA ...and most other youth copmpetitive organizations for that matter. There is the timely saying that " ignorance before the laws, rules and the circumstances is no excuse ". So while we naturally sympathize with the fact that SCV staff apparently were unaware that they were breaking the rules in 1989, the NCAA would have stripped them of ALL their scores, placements in 1989. Thats because knowingly or unknowingly, they utlized ineligible marchers throughout 98% of the 1989 season and heading into the Championships week they received the advantaged seeding that it is speculative at best they would have received had they not marched the two illegal marchers all season long. The NCAA certainly does not care if a Coach knows or does not know his players are illegal. The penalty is forfeiture of ALL competitive scores, placements, wins, etc in both circumstances, so to them, it is irrelevent as to whether or not those in charge knew of the breaking of the rules or not. Just sayin'

What does the NCAA have to do with DCI?

Anyways, seems to me that it's a good thing that DCI differs from the NCAA on this. The NCAA's broken compliance system is riddled with corruption, favoritism, arbitrary enforcement of rules, so on and so forth. DCI isn't perfect today and I'm sure it was far, far from perfect in the fourth year of its existence but it's a sight better than the NCAA in this regard.