cixelsyd Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 But they all performed at prelims together, on the exact same set of sheets. So yes, in terms of looking at Open Class, they probably would have ended up around 9th. How is that? Scores from 2012 prelims: Oregon Crusaders 75.9 Blue Devils B 73.45 Vanguard Cadets 72.95 Spartans 69.35 Gold 66.35 Pioneer 66.2 7th Regiment 64.45 Genesis 63.5 Legends 63.4 Music City 62.85 Raiders 61.05 Colt Cadets 57.95 Stentors 52.75 Blue Saints 49.1 Pioneer would have been 6th, not 9th. Did you even look before posting? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 They host kids, not have their members travel to them to run clinics. Two very different things. Also, the average age of their drumline is what? 15? 16? I wouldn't ever want that sort of liability. How should I know how old they actually are? I just know how old they look. They look extremely young. On this topic... people need to stop pretending that corps at the top tier of world class and groups like Pioneer are actually doing the same thing or that they belong in the situation of competing against each other. It makes zero sense. Maybe one factor to apply for world class should be a minimum average age of performers? This would be more fair. The point spread between Pioneer and first place in World Class was more than 31 points, while the gap between Pioneer and the lowest placing corps in Open Class was only 16 points. They were within 7 points of ELEVEN other Open Class corps.... and within about a tenth a point of the EIGHTH place corps in Open Class. How does it make sense for Pioneer to be in World Class then they are actually 9th place in Open Class? They were on the same sheets for Prelims. If they perform at obviously different levels, they should not be in the same class. It makes it difficult to sell World Class as truly major league if all the participants are not, in fact, major league. Wouldn't it be a bit strange if Major League baseball had a standout minor league team just thrown in there? And yet kids don't keep coming back... While the same administration has been there since before I was a kid, what percentage of kids who start there actually age out there? Pioneer tours a bit, but are they really world class? Not being up on Pioneer, just stating an actual truth. Pioneer is not even close to the level of performance of other World Class corps. They are actually only in the middle of the pack for Open Class. So why are they World Class? No one can seem to effectively answer that question. Which reveals quite a lot about the current state of DCI - no clear strategy that is in tune with the outside world. Great that Pioneer is kid-centric... but when was the last time you were sitting in the stands and heard someone "Oh man... did you see those guys' ethics??? Unbelievable!" How many people show up to see a group's ethics and conduct? To put a group in World Class simply because they've managed to simply not #### things up financially is completely strange, especially from a marketing standpoint. Financial stability and tour capability should be a MINIMUM requirement for World Class, not THE requirement. What is with this Pioneer derangement syndrome? I see a pattern of behavior here among those promoting the G7 point of view. It is a derision for the lower placing corps so deep that these people cannot even bring themselves to spend the time and attention to get their facts straight. Derisive comments and stereotypes about corps with allegedly younger members without actually knowing how old any of them are. Derisive comments and stereotypes about point spreads and placements without even looking at the scores. Derisive comments and stereotypes about major league vs. minor league without even considering that the expectations of world class have been defined by the DCI membership (G7 included). Derisive comments and stereotypes about how a corps "tours a bit" without even checking to find that they did 21 events vs. the Blue Devils doing 22. These people just want to dismiss those "other corps", figuratively and literally, proposing they be removed from DCI. Yet when asked for justification, they present a jumble of "facts" that prove untrue. If the basis for these proposals is factually incorrect, why should these proposals be seriously considered? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 TOC didn't involve creating new corps to compete. SoundSport involves not just the creation of an event but also a circuit and participating groups. Not necessarily. There are many existing groups that could do SoundSport. To your second point you are playing the semantics game (a favorite of yours?). Sending a text message is participating. The fans judge the corps and offer their opinion thus are part of the judging process. No, the fan voting was completely separate from the judging process. Unless it figures into the official contest results, it is not part of the judging process. By your definition, a thread here on DCP could be part of the judging process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 How is that? Scores from 2012 prelims: Oregon Crusaders 75.9 Blue Devils B 73.45 Vanguard Cadets 72.95 Spartans 69.35 Gold 66.35 Pioneer 66.2 7th Regiment 64.45 Genesis 63.5 Legends 63.4 Music City 62.85 Raiders 61.05 Colt Cadets 57.95 Stentors 52.75 Blue Saints 49.1 Pioneer would have been 6th, not 9th. Did you even look before posting? You're making the assumption that a lot of those other corps down there should also be in World Class. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 You're making the assumption that a lot of those other corps down there should also be in World Class. No. One other corps should be, apparently (Oregon Crusaders), because they have in fact expressed interest, and subsequently passed evaluation to enter WC in 2013. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 How is that? Scores from 2012 prelims: Oregon Crusaders 75.9 Blue Devils B 73.45 Vanguard Cadets 72.95 Spartans 69.35 Gold 66.35 Pioneer 66.2 7th Regiment 64.45 Genesis 63.5 Legends 63.4 Music City 62.85 Raiders 61.05 Colt Cadets 57.95 Stentors 52.75 Blue Saints 49.1 Pioneer would have been 6th, not 9th. Did you even look before posting? I was wondering about the 9th place thing too, but I was too lazy to verify. Thanks for looking it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) You're making the assumption that a lot of those other corps down there should also be in World Class. That's a little strawman there, Dan. You misquoted their placement. Sorry, but if you're not going to actually do the research and are just making general statements like this, your credibility has been lowered in many eyes. If you're going to be polarizing, be factually correct EVERY time. It's just good business, Edited March 2, 2013 by jjeffeory 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) What is with this Pioneer derangement syndrome? I see a pattern of behavior here among those promoting the G7 point of view. It is a derision for the lower placing corps so deep that these people cannot even bring themselves to spend the time and attention to get their facts straight. Derisive comments and stereotypes about corps with allegedly younger members without actually knowing how old any of them are. Derisive comments and stereotypes about point spreads and placements without even looking at the scores. Derisive comments and stereotypes about major league vs. minor league without even considering that the expectations of world class have been defined by the DCI membership (G7 included). Derisive comments and stereotypes about how a corps "tours a bit" without even checking to find that they did 21 events vs. the Blue Devils doing 22. These people just want to dismiss those "other corps", figuratively and literally, proposing they be removed from DCI. Yet when asked for justification, they present a jumble of "facts" that prove untrue. If the basis for these proposals is factually incorrect, why should these proposals be seriously considered? Ok. So, what is the actual age of Pioneer? What is their member retention rate? Why do you suggest it is some G7 point of view. I actually created a little drum corps that is not even near the level of Pioneer yet and has not travelled any further than an hour away from home, made up of village kids that have only learned to play from participation in the organization. This doesn't seem to mesh with the idea of an elitist attitude. I am simply pointing out that DCI World Class is a bit odd in the way it is constructed. This is not something I just recently began pressing on, I've been saying this for years. My point is not about the purpose of an organization or how much they tour or how well they do anything but perform. Organizational stability, high operational standards, ability to tour all should be MINIMUM requirements for participating in World Class... but only performance level, once other minimum requirements are met, should determine qualification for world class. Edited March 1, 2013 by danielray 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyDad Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) What is with this Pioneer derangement syndrome? Maybe it's a "bait and switch" tactic that gets people to stop talking about the freak show that corps administrators like BD's have become. G7 honks don't like to hear bad things about Gibbs et al. And it's even worse. Critics of the G7 are (in general) criticizing the corps directors. Dan'l has stooped to actually criticizing the kids - what's the avg age of the drummers, for example. Pretty sad IMO. Edited March 1, 2013 by HockeyDad 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Why do you suggest it is some G7 point of view. Because it recurs among people who share most of the G7 point of view, like yourself, Slingerland, and whoever wrote the G7 proposal and put Pioneer in class AA with a question mark, while other better WC corps were relegated to class AAA. I actually created a little drum corps that is not even near the level of Pioneer yet and has not travelled any further than an hour away from home, made up of village kids that have only learned to play from participation in the organization. Good for you. The activity needs people like you. My point is not about the purpose of an organization or how much they tour or how well they do anything but perform. Organizational stability, high operational standards, ability to tour all should be MINIMUM requirements for participating in World Class... but only performance level, once other minimum requirements are met, should determine qualification for world class. Then why do you go on and on about age, average age, minimum age, age of drumline, head count, number of shows, number of ageouts, number of weeks on the road, and other things when what you are really interested in is simply competitive placement? If all you want is to go back to the system where the top X corps were the member corps, just say so and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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