A Hunch; A Question

[Kamarag]

Will the 1976 TOC show draw the bigger crowd?

I'm not sure how comparing today to 1976 is relevant. I get what you're trying to say, I just don't thin you're articulating it very well. I also realize a couple of things:

1. I think both the G7 corps and DCI have merits to their point of views. I don't think siding 100% with either is going to solve anything, especially in the long run. it's clear the status quo isn't working for the financial success of everyone involved. I don't fall completely in either camp, at least as far as determining who is "right".

2. I know that I am not by any means a "typical fan". DCI doesn't market to me, nor should it. DCI should focus on marketing to the masses. I believe DCI has done a number of good things in this area, but has a long way to go. I sometimes believe that they aren't aggressive enough in some areas (particularly online and with the Fan Network), but again, that's my opinion.

3. I know that what makes me decide whether to attend a show or not is probably much different from what makes other DCP members, let alone "the masses" choose to attend shows. I'm also ok with that. I do not believe, however, that other people similar to myself have figured that out yet, particularly when it comes to DCP posters. There are a few, to be sure...some of which have posted in this thread.

4. My main concern with the G7 corps striking out on their own isn't whether they will have a successful venture (I believe they would), it's more of a question of what happens when they realize that one or more of their own members are dragging them down, much like they accuse the non-G7 folks of doing now. What happens ten years from now, when one of those corps becomes the perennial bottom feeder of the seven? Do they get cut loose? Does seven become five? Are they replaced, and if so by whom? I very much doubt anyone in the G7 is willing to talk about that much...

I do think that looking at why DCI was created in the first place should very much be at the forefront of the discussion, even though the reasons weren't the same. I do not think linking 40 year old placements is germane to that discussion.

[mobrien]

Although I agree with your "free-market" concept, it clearly is not something DCI or the corps are interested in doing. It is made very clear that TEP's are NOT to contact corps directly to schedule a show, and that rule came at the request of the directors themselves.

DCI discourages, and does not accept, requests for specific corps to fill out a line-up. "We sell a show package" is DCI's response and it's not negotiable. A TEP can't pick and choose.

Which is one of the problems with DCI, as a concept. There's no financial incentive for some of the lower-ranking corps to improve their product and make themselves more sellable, and a limit to how much the more marketable corps can leverage their success in creating popular products.

There are plenty of corps that are not necessarily tops, competitively, who would still benefit from this idea, and I'd think that TEP's themselves would also find it beneficial to have the chance to put together the bill that best serves their particular audience interests. But the current model of "central planning" from the DCI office is failing to give the corps themselves an ability to benefit from their excellence and the TEP's from maximizing their own ability to create first class events.

Any fear that Blue Devils would demand $10,000 to show up would be put right by the reality that most event promoters couldn't afford to pay that much for a single corps (unless the event were happening at a big enough venue that the promoter felt that having BD there would be enough of a draw, in which case good on 'em). By the same token, if the Board of corps X discovers that their corps can almost never get more than the minimum fee, because event promoters don't feel they'll bring that much of an audience to the house, the Board would have an incentive to ask themselves what they have to do in order to boost their corps' marketability (not their competitiveness; their marketabilty).

Give the corps an ability to leverage their own excellence, and you've taken away any need for Board room antics at the DCI level. They'll be more focused on doing what they can to maximize their paydays on the road, and less focused on trying to squeeze juice from a piece of fruit that isn't that big to begin with.

Edited February 19, 2013 by mobrien

[N.E. Brigand]

Let me try another way of putting this into perspective. Say the G7 thing started back in 1972. Seven corps self-selected on the basis of 1972 results, presented a PowerPoint slide show in May 1973, did TOC shows in 1974 and 1975, and this MiM-renamed-back-to-TOC in 1976. In that context, your TOC show consists of the following corps (with their 1976 rankings in parentheses):

SCV (3rd) -- 27th (5th) -- BS (9th) -- Troop (13th) -- Argonne (18th) -- Kingsmen (19th) -- Des Plaines (31st)

Meanwhile, pick seven non-TOC corps:

BD (1st) -- Madison (2nd) -- Phantom (4th) -- Bridgemen (6th) -- Cavaliers (7th) -- Oakland (8th) -- Seneca (10th)

Will the 1976 TOC show draw the bigger crowd?

Fun! But the counter-argument you're going to get, that has been offered several times in the past few weeks, is that it just couldn't happen that way anymore, because the standings are much less fluid from year to year. Now whether that's a good thing or not is the question that spurred me to start the "stagnated" thread.

[garfield]

Which is one of the problems with DCI, as a concept. "Everyone's a winer", which takes away any incentive for some of the lower-ranking corps to improve their product and make themselves more sellable.

Did you forget an "h" or an "n"? Or, did you mean "wino"?

:tongue:/>

[mobrien]

Did you forget an "h" or an "n"? Or, did you mean "wino"?

:tongue:/>/>

Some of them are whiners, but it seems to cut across competitive boundaries.

[Stu]

I suspect that, as was the original intent of the OP's post, should the greater fandom become familiar with the G7's antics, they might just choose the DCI show over the TOC show.

Since I am the OP, this particular posting by Garfield comes closest to the intent of the thread with one addition: The truth, it is said, will set you free; and the truth should have been made known to the fans to allow them to decide for themselves. The fact that DCI chose to originally 'veil' the rogue non-DCI MiM (now ToC) shows within their own schedule was the issue not the performance format.

[Stu]

Should the MiM group (should there be one) go so far as to schedule a show in direct competition with DCI for BITS, I'd not hesitate to stand on the hill and shout the details of just, exactly, what the G7 attempted and wishes to happen to the activity's participating units and it's governing body... I also recognize that possibly many (most?) would not hear me scream, or even care if they do hear me, and still choose the G7 show.

But at least the fans would be allowed to make a choice based on truth not a veiled attempt to cover up the truth.

[Kamarag]

But at least the fans would be allowed to make a choice based on truth not a veiled attempt to cover up the truth.

I'm still not understanding why you believe this is a huge deal. Who cares what they call it? DCI has clearly sanctioned these events, so what difference does it make who the "sponsor" is? I get that you're angry, for whatever reason.

I still believe that the vast majority of the fan base doesn't care now, and won't care later. They just want to see their favorite corps.

[Jeff Ream]

Which is one of the problems with DCI, as a concept. There's no financial incentive for some of the lower-ranking corps to improve their product and make themselves more sellable, and a limit to how much the more marketable corps can leverage their success in creating popular products.

There are plenty of corps that are not necessarily tops, competitively, who would still benefit from this idea, and I'd think that TEP's themselves would also find it beneficial to have the chance to put together the bill that best serves their particular audience interests. But the current model of "central planning" from the DCI office is failing to give the corps themselves an ability to benefit from their excellence and the TEP's from maximizing their own ability to create first class events.

Any fear that Blue Devils would demand $10,000 to show up would be put right by the reality that most event promoters couldn't afford to pay that much for a single corps (unless the event were happening at a big enough venue that the promoter felt that having BD there would be enough of a draw, in which case good on 'em). By the same token, if the Board of corps X discovers that their corps can almost never get more than the minimum fee, because event promoters don't feel they'll bring that much of an audience to the house, the Board would have an incentive to ask themselves what they have to do in order to boost their corps' marketability (not their competitiveness; their marketabilty).

Give the corps an ability to leverage their own excellence, and you've taken away any need for Board room antics at the DCI level. They'll be more focused on doing what they can to maximize their paydays on the road, and less focused on trying to squeeze juice from a piece of fruit that isn't that big to begin with.

DCA currently operates that each corps negotiates with the sponsor. I believe thats why you see smaller shows

[Stu]

I'm still not understanding why you believe this is a huge deal. Who cares what they call it? DCI has clearly sanctioned these events, so what difference does it make who the "sponsor" is? I get that you're angry, for whatever reason.

I still believe that the vast majority of the fan base doesn't care now, and won't care later. They just want to see their favorite corps.

You usually are better at picking things up. As the OP what the shows are 'called', or even if they were based on a different format, was not the issue. What was at issue to me, and I contend it would also be an issue with the fans if they were made aware, is that until a few days a go the MiM (now ToC) shows had no financial or real benefit for DCI or the DCI competitive arena whatsoever yet they were being veiled within the DCI schedule as supposed DCI shows. The MiM shows, until a few days ago, were actually being ran by the MiM Corporation Corps and solely for the exclusive benefit of the MiM Corporation Corps but riding on the marketing and scheduling shoulders of DCI 'without' the knowledge being transmitted to the fans. This deception of both the G7 and DCI was the issue of this thread.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Stu