Time to unplug drum corps

[MikeN]

3. I get it. I know why you don't like synths. They are too loud sometimes, and the thunderous goo can get a bit much. Some of this has to do with the speakers we are using that create "hot spots" in the stands for certain listeners, but that's a conversation for another day. (Small ground stacked line arrays, look it up) However, as more and more corps get pros in to the audio positions, and not just the parent who used to install car stereos or the pit gut who has to learn this stuff, the outcome will get better, and it has greatly improved already. I don't know who he is, but SCV's guy is doing a great job. (and has a beautiful FOH rack, but that's beside the point..kudos) The FE is never overbalanced, and you hear them featured when you should, and don't when they are supportive. Shout out to the Cavies team as well. Cadets just had an electronics position open, which I assume was filled with a true pro. We are not long from every corps having a full time PA guy will be the norm, and the results will improve.

Hey, man - thanks for posting! Nice to hear from someone with experience on the matter.

But... it's been 10 years now using these sound systems in DCI, and much, much longer in the band world. How much longer do we have to wait for a true "pro" setup to be figured out? I really wish there were some sort of "standard" setup that could be agreed upon that would let a) all corps plug in to the same equipment and b) could be tested, evaluated and tweaked as time goes on.

And regarding SCV, when I saw them in Houston last year, they had the absolute loudest amped front ensemble of the top 8. They were the only corps that you literally could not hear their actual playing because their speakers covered them up. To be fair, though, I admit we might have been sitting too close...

Mike

[BRASSO]

What is synthetic sound? Sound is sound. A trumpet player buzzes his/her lips, it goes through tubing and out comes a trumpet sound. It sounds nothing like the trumpet player buzzing (or at least that is the goal! :smile:/>/>/>/>/>/> ).

I was referring to ( my words above ) "piped in music" that is programmed before the show for utilization in the show, and was not created by any member before us in judged competition on this day of competition. I utilized the phase ( my words )" canned " music above in my comments. I consider this a SYNTHETIC sound, an artificially induced sound introduced into the field of competition by ( my words ) " an adult ", prior to the show. Such piped in music ( and other non musical sounds ) are primarily utilized in preshows, (but not exclusively.) I made no reference above at all to a " SYNTH " which is short for " SYNTHESIZER ", which, as we all know is a musical, electronic, pit instrument capable of producing lots of different sounds and produced on the field of competition by a performing competitor. I made no comment, nor any reference at all, neither for nor against such an instrument useage in competition. I hope this clears things up as to what I stated above ( and did not state ).

Edited May 30, 2013 by BRASSO

[glory]

One more thing. This notion that Cavies' vote against electronics was pristine while their decision to employ electronics the next year was corrupt is naive at best and impugns the Cavies good reputation at worst. I don't know at what point the Cavies leadership changed its mind. For all we know, they wanted to use amps but voted against the proposal for PR reasons. That's irrelevant now. What matters is what they did. The chose to make their equipment work for them best. And neither they nor any other corps have reversed themselves on that decision.

HH

[Tito]

Hey, man - thanks for posting! Nice to hear from someone with experience on the matter. :thumbup:/>/>

But... it's been 10 years now using these sound systems in DCI, and much, much longer in the band world. How much longer do we have to wait for a true "pro" setup to be figured out? I really wish there were some sort of "standard" setup that could be agreed upon that would let a) all corps plug in to the same equipment and b) could be tested, evaluated and tweaked as time goes on.

And regarding SCV, when I saw them in Houston last year, they had the absolute loudest amped front ensemble of the top 8. They were the only corps that you literally could not hear their actual playing because their speakers covered them up. To be fair, though, I admit we might have been sitting too close... :smile:/>/>

Mike

Thanks for great points!

The first point - I don't know how long we have to wait, and I certainly don't have all the answers.

I've thought about the one PA approach. In theory it would work, and cut down costs since DCI could provide the PA, and the corps wouldn't have to invest in one. But, that would leave the corps with no PA for rehearsal, which would lead to a "fly by the seat of your pants" approach when the corps takes the field. It could be tough. Also, corps have deals with manufacturers, which could lead to conflicts, such as Cadets (Yamaha) playing through a different branded PA. DCI could just black out the branding on the equipment I suppose. How many shows happen on a given day throughout the summer? Would DCI buy 4-5 high quality PA's with 4-5 trucks and pay 4-5 full time audio guys to travel to each show all summer? I'm not saying it cant work, there's just a lot that would go in to it.

Second point - I can only guess as to your specific experience at this show with this corps. I will try to guess though. Because I'm a percussionist I sit close as well. I have had instances where the hornline (doing what they're supposed to do) just blows right over my head to the pressbox (Allentown) and all I hear is the PA. It does suck. The goal of the corps is to make it sound good at the pressbox for the judges. Sometimes the blend and balance at the pressbox is way different than it is any where else, in my opinion due to the directivity of the PA's we are currently using. So, I believe we need to think in terms of coverage rather than volume to fix the problem. You may have been sitting in an unfortunate hot spot. OR...it could have been exactly as you heard it...way too loud in relation to the rest of the corps.

[actucker]

I am calling BS on this. Fact is, the front ensemble has become unequally prioritized compared to the field percussion or the brass. They are now the one section playing constantly from the first sound of the pre-show through the final note. And they are the only section that has had widespread (obligatory) concessions employed in staging, then later in use of electronic amplification.

We have seen corps, including title contenders such as Ventures and Patriots, forsake field percussion entirely and use only pit percussion. Have there been any examples of similarly competitive corps in the same era forsaking the pit and using only field percussion?

Or you could do what every other instrument does - vary the quantity to achieve the desired balance.

The front ensemble often plays through the entire show because there are a million colors available in the ensemble, while brass and battery percussion have limited colors available. That being said, name me a show where every single member of the front ensemble plays the entire show. Total playing time isn't exactly a good measure of musical priority. The brass ensemble still carries the vast majority of thematic material in the overall programming. The soloists still come from the brass line or the battery.

What does a group's decision to not have a battery have to do with the evolution of the front ensemble? Again, there are more color options there. Many high school marching bands have made the same decision when they didn't have the members to field a full battery and a full front ensemble. A group could decide not to have a front ensemble if they want. They would lose a lot of musical opportunities, but they could do it if they wanted to. The current capabilities of the front ensemble are a good thing. God forbid someone take advantage of those things.

The variation of quantity you're talking about is, in fact, present. It was present before amplification as well. Problem was, even with the entire mallet line playing the same part in octaves at full forte, they weren't going to be heard over the brass line when the brass line cranked up. I'm sorry that physics put the front ensemble at a disadvantage. The whole "non directional wooden instruments don't project anywhere near as well as directional brass" thing. Silly physics.

Again, you could make the argument that you can develop an outdoor technique and be heard some of the time. You would risk abusing the instruments, the players, and the ears of anyone who knows what those instruments are supposed to sound like, but it could be done. However, you still would have limited ability to be heard in impact moments (essentially being relegated to cymbals), and the way you write for the ensemble would be limited. Or, you could simply accept that amplification of otherwise disadvantaged instruments is a good thing. I would ask, when was the last time a brass line was taught to develop a bad sound, just to be heard?

[cybersnyder]

I too dislike the A&E. Make sure you attend a DCA show this year, since you won't hear drum corps unplugged after 2013.

The rest of your side is too broad.

I did not know that. Now I'll have to look for a senior corps that needs electric bass for next season. Cool!

EDIT: Nevermind, I found the rule and it's only mallets. I was wondering if hell really did freeze over.

Edited May 30, 2013 by cybersnyder

[cixelsyd]

2. I'm not sure how some can yearn for the number of corps and number of kids involved in the activity from years past, yet also complain about the activity taking steps that attract youth. (I realize this was not part of the original post, and may be a bit off topic). Kids are surrounded by electronics...phones, ipads etc. For better or worse, music today is based more in computer based electronic sounds more than ever before. If the activity is trying to attract youth and grow the number of corps, why not do what would attract youth?

Seriously? Kids like iPhones, therefore we should add A&E to drum corps?

I could try to address this with you on an ideological level, and explain how the attraction of drum corps has always been the challenge of performing with a limited set of instrumentation that does not include every state-of-the-art piece of equipment. But how about we try facts instead? There was a surge in youth interest from the late 1990s through about 2003 or 2004, both in membership and fan interest regarding DCI corps. The years 2002 and 2003 saw frequent press releases touting record audition numbers and record ticket sales bolstered by busloads of band kids. Amplification was introduced in DCI starting in the 2004 season, with electronic instruments debuting in 2009. Claims of record audition numbers or ticket sales have been very rare ever since. If electronics attract youth, we should have seen growth in youth involvement over the past 9 years, right?

[cybersnyder]

Seriously? Kids like iPhones, therefore we should add A&E to drum corps?

I could try to address this with you on an ideological level, and explain how the attraction of drum corps has always been the challenge of performing with a limited set of instrumentation that does not include every state-of-the-art piece of equipment. But how about we try facts instead? There was a surge in youth interest from the late 1990s through about 2003 or 2004, both in membership and fan interest regarding DCI corps. The years 2002 and 2003 saw frequent press releases touting record audition numbers and record ticket sales bolstered by busloads of band kids. Amplification was introduced in DCI starting in the 2004 season, with electronic instruments debuting in 2009. Claims of record audition numbers or ticket sales have been very rare ever since. If electronics attract youth, we should have seen growth in youth involvement over the past 9 years, right?

Of course the whole economic downturn had nothing to do with it. Actually, maybe synths are to blame for the economic downturn.

[Tito]

Seriously? Kids like iPhones, therefore we should add A&E to drum corps?

I could try to address this with you on an ideological level, and explain how the attraction of drum corps has always been the challenge of performing with a limited set of instrumentation that does not include every state-of-the-art piece of equipment. But how about we try facts instead? There was a surge in youth interest from the late 1990s through about 2003 or 2004, both in membership and fan interest regarding DCI corps. The years 2002 and 2003 saw frequent press releases touting record audition numbers and record ticket sales bolstered by busloads of band kids. Amplification was introduced in DCI starting in the 2004 season, with electronic instruments debuting in 2009. Claims of record audition numbers or ticket sales have been very rare ever since. If electronics attract youth, we should have seen growth in youth involvement over the past 9 years, right?

Well, you're over simplifying my point regarding the iPhone thing, but I get where you're coming from. Maybe one doesn't equal the other.

attraction of drum corps has always been the challenge of performing with a limited set of instrumentation that does not include every state-of-the-art piece of equipment. - Agreed that the instrumentation pre-electronics led to interesting orchestration, and creativity. Maybe you view it as a cop-out of sorts to take something that would be difficult to translate on the field and just give it to the synth players and samples. I cant argue with your opinion, if that's the case. I just believe that it opens doors to new sounds, and I happen to like it when done well.

There was a surge in youth interest...we should have seen growth in youth involvement over the past 9 years, right?- Great argument on the other side. There are other factors involved (economy), but I guess my point may be that it cant actually hurt the numbers of kids interested in marching. If kids are in band programs and indoor programs that are using electronics, drum corps could be viewed as antiquated in their eyes.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Tito

[BRASSO]

The soloists still come from the brass line or the battery.

Hmnnn... I'm not so sure about this. One of the evolutionary changes we have witnessed over the years is that the " soloists " no longer come exclusively from the brass line or the percussion line. We are most apt to see a featured " soloist " came from the Guard section now. It is the Guard that predominently best conveys the theme these days now. And the Guard " soloist " typically performs his or her solo longer in duration than a brass or percussion soloist too. Not always of course, but oftentimes.

In 2001, the Cavaliers won a DCI Title for themselves with a theme entitled " Four Corners ". The Percussion line faced the far right backfield facing the back stands for a third of the show and never moved a muscle. Today, all this talk about amplification, electronics, brass soloists, brass lines, music selections, battery instrumentation is all so superfluous these days in my opinion. The Corps that have the best Visual show designers and the largest and the best Guards are going to place high. What place do we think the Cavaliers of 2001 would have placed if they positioned the Guard instead of the Percussion line in the far right backfield and had them not move a muscle for a third of the show, but instead had the Drums playing from the time they entered the stadium until they left the stadium ? Would they have won in this scenario ? Doubt it. They'd have been buried in GE , Visual, Guard. What was the biggest factor that resulted in the Cavs finishing 8th last season ? The loss of so many veteran drummers and brass players from the year before ? Not enough brass or percussion soloists in the show ? They wern't as talented or didn't work as hard as 7 other Corps did ? or might it have simply been the loss of a single adult from their Visual Design Staff in the off season ? I think most of us here are saavy enough to know the answer to this. So, for better or worse, this is where we are today re. brass, drums, marchers, staff, amps, no amps, electronics, no electronics, brass/ percussion soloists, etc... its all secondary to what primarily drives the scores and the placements nowadays. Its the adults on these staffs that primarily drive the placements and scores these days for their individual Corps, not the perfomers sweating bullets in gyms and on practice fields and competition fields any longer. Things change. And this is one of those changes. And most of us have learned to get used to this new reality now too. Its the Corps themselves... the adults on the staffs... that have designed these score sheets on how they are to be judged in competition, not us here on DCP. And the Corps of today prefer Guard soloists ( or duets ) over that of Brass or Percussion soloists ( or duets ) in terms of the ability to garner the most critical scoring points in competition for their Corps. And so it is what it is these days now. As was mentioned earlier on here.... things change.

Edited May 30, 2013 by BRASSO