Wrong Step in Right Direction

[Pete Freedman]

My sense is that it's very diverse today, in terms of the range of styles (i.e. the extremes). But there are trends that people are unhappy with. Two that have been mentioned are bibbers and shoes. I think people may be talking about two different things regarding bibbers; one is just overalls that look like regular pants, and the other is these stretchy things that go under the feet. This last one seems a bit like wearing sweatpants to the grocery store; like you couldn't be bothered with real pants. Too comfy-looking, basically.

By contrast, the dress shoes are criticized because they are too traditional. Still, I would hope that the design of the shoes is basically athletic, while the outer look is plain and simple. Does anyone know if any corps still marches with actual dress shoes? As in, shoes not designed for marching?

Overall I think the state of uniforms is Ok, but I do always feel like the perfect uniform is out there somewhere yet to be discovered...

[pianolover1]

First... let me start off by saying I am continually amazed and how much the activity has progressed over recent years, the technical ability, musicianship athleticism and sheer creativity is amazing.

In spite of all of this, there is one glaring trend that I might suggest is going very much down the wrong path. A break from the past here is certainly needed, but this can't be the right direction.

Uniforms...

Frankly speaking, guys are just trying too hard and can't seem to completely break away from some sort of pseduo-military element of the past that makes it feel even more awkward. The end result is something that seems so out there to the uninitiated, to the point where it seems kind of amateurish.

What is most strange is that all are sort of moving very much in the same sort of waves (something old, something new, something borrowed, something half and half, etc.). Everything is a mashup, rather than a concrete or cohesive idea.

What is wrong with simple? What is wrong with a wide range of possibilities out there? Why does everyone need to follow a trend vs. putting something out there that makes both programatic sense and is appropriate to the type of movement guys out there are doing?

The roots of this trend are in WGI, more specifically winter percussion, where pretty much everyone (with some very recent and breakout exceptions) is wearing Star Trek pajamas. How did this happen? Where did this come from? Most of these things look like those velour jumpsuits my grandpa used to wear back in the day. Nothing about this is remotely connected with this decade and needs to change.

Anyway, we're stuck in this sort of loop (is it the manufacturers driving this and influencing this, having to put out something so attention getting each year?) and there needs to be some fresh horses and new exploration and more diversity.

Rather than designs that are force-fit to be marching bandish.... something completely clean... from zero... re-imagined?

Rather than starting with a traditional military influenced uniform and deconstructing, start from more dance and athletic wear foundations and build up from there?

While we're at it... it is time for these silly ski bib pants to go. There is no body shape out there that this looks good on... also, costuming needs to be considered in the full context of the performance, which is wherever people are hanging out watching you do stuff. Watching guys warm up in bib pants is silly.

On the topic... shoes. With so much revolution going on out there in the athletic shoe world (and drum corps is athletics from the neck down) we're still out there wearing souped up nurses shoes? Really?

Bottom line... guys out there are trying way too hard. Seems like it is the manufacturers driving this... it isn't helping to make things more accessible, not at all. Time to go back to the drawing board... everyone tabula rasa with a build up, rather than tear down approach and hopefully the result will be something that is not only contextually relevant, but movement appropriate and a little less awkward for the general public.

I think in the late 70's early 80's Seattle Imperials and Capital Freelancers (the year Shirlee Whitcomb worked with their design) dis use jumpsuits not only on the guard, but on the corps proper.

[pianolover1]

First... let me start off by saying I am continually amazed and how much the activity has progressed over recent years, the technical ability, musicianship athleticism and sheer creativity is amazing.

In spite of all of this, there is one glaring trend that I might suggest is going very much down the wrong path. A break from the past here is certainly needed, but this can't be the right direction.

Uniforms...

Frankly speaking, guys are just trying too hard and can't seem to completely break away from some sort of pseduo-military element of the past that makes it feel even more awkward. The end result is something that seems so out there to the uninitiated, to the point where it seems kind of amateurish.

What is most strange is that all are sort of moving very much in the same sort of waves (something old, something new, something borrowed, something half and half, etc.). Everything is a mashup, rather than a concrete or cohesive idea.

What is wrong with simple? What is wrong with a wide range of possibilities out there? Why does everyone need to follow a trend vs. putting something out there that makes both programatic sense and is appropriate to the type of movement guys out there are doing?

The roots of this trend are in WGI, more specifically winter percussion, where pretty much everyone (with some very recent and breakout exceptions) is wearing Star Trek pajamas. How did this happen? Where did this come from? Most of these things look like those velour jumpsuits my grandpa used to wear back in the day. Nothing about this is remotely connected with this decade and needs to change.

Anyway, we're stuck in this sort of loop (is it the manufacturers driving this and influencing this, having to put out something so attention getting each year?) and there needs to be some fresh horses and new exploration and more diversity.

Rather than designs that are force-fit to be marching bandish.... something completely clean... from zero... re-imagined?

Rather than starting with a traditional military influenced uniform and deconstructing, start from more dance and athletic wear foundations and build up from there?

While we're at it... it is time for these silly ski bib pants to go. There is no body shape out there that this looks good on... also, costuming needs to be considered in the full context of the performance, which is wherever people are hanging out watching you do stuff. Watching guys warm up in bib pants is silly.

On the topic... shoes. With so much revolution going on out there in the athletic shoe world (and drum corps is athletics from the neck down) we're still out there wearing souped up nurses shoes? Really?

Bottom line... guys out there are trying way too hard. Seems like it is the manufacturers driving this... it isn't helping to make things more accessible, not at all. Time to go back to the drawing board... everyone tabula rasa with a build up, rather than tear down approach and hopefully the result will be something that is not only contextually relevant, but movement appropriate and a little less awkward for the general public.

I think in the late 70's early 80's Seattle Imperials and Capital Freelancers (the year Shirlee Whitcomb worked with their design) dis use jumpsuits not only on the guard, but on the corps proper.

[perc2100]

I'm no uniform expert but, on the point of "guys" warming up in the lot in bibbies, I wonder, what would you do in the alternative? Suspenders? Belts? Rope? How do you keep the pants up around the hips on those players whose physique is an inverted triangle from the belly down? Do we really want to be that YouTube of one tuba player whose pants fall down around his ankles?

I don't get the angst. Jackets are worn on the field. The uniform should compliment the show. Nobody is stopping corps from doing different or weird things, yet, they still wear bibs for the practical benefits.

On this specific issue (bib pants), I agree with your thoughts. I personally don't think warm-ups need to be tailored for anything other than getting a corps ready to perform. I don't see warm-up zones as secondary performances areas, and I don't think drum corps should change anything to accommodate the pseudo-performance venue warm-up zones have become. Uniform design is ALL about visual design + comfort. Sacrificing either of those is crazy, regardless of "it looks bad when corps warm-up in half uniform.

[perc2100]

First... let me start off by saying I am continually amazed and how much the activity has progressed over recent years, the technical ability, musicianship athleticism and sheer creativity is amazing.

In spite of all of this, there is one glaring trend that I might suggest is going very much down the wrong path. A break from the past here is certainly needed, but this can't be the right direction.

Uniforms...

Frankly speaking, guys are just trying too hard and can't seem to completely break away from some sort of pseduo-military element of the past that makes it feel even more awkward. The end result is something that seems so out there to the uninitiated, to the point where it seems kind of amateurish.

What is most strange is that all are sort of moving very much in the same sort of waves (something old, something new, something borrowed, something half and half, etc.). Everything is a mashup, rather than a concrete or cohesive idea.

What is wrong with simple? What is wrong with a wide range of possibilities out there? Why does everyone need to follow a trend vs. putting something out there that makes both programatic sense and is appropriate to the type of movement guys out there are doing?

The roots of this trend are in WGI, more specifically winter percussion, where pretty much everyone (with some very recent and breakout exceptions) is wearing Star Trek pajamas. How did this happen? Where did this come from? Most of these things look like those velour jumpsuits my grandpa used to wear back in the day. Nothing about this is remotely connected with this decade and needs to change.

Anyway, we're stuck in this sort of loop (is it the manufacturers driving this and influencing this, having to put out something so attention getting each year?) and there needs to be some fresh horses and new exploration and more diversity.

Rather than designs that are force-fit to be marching bandish.... something completely clean... from zero... re-imagined?

Rather than starting with a traditional military influenced uniform and deconstructing, start from more dance and athletic wear foundations and build up from there?

This is an interesting conversion: that of the modern uniform dichotomy and the seeming quest to perfectly marry traditional with modernistic. Even when Cadets designed what IMO seems like one of the more modern shows in 2006, and tweaked their unis to enhance their 'out there' design, it still seemed kind of messy because they held on "too much" to their traditional cadet-styled uniform. Perhaps people go nuts over fairly minor uniform changes (for example, Troopers' triangles on the legs) because there is too much of an illusion to uniform tradition. Crown's uniforms this year seem to fall way closer to the side of "forget traditional uniform, we're going solely for visual design" than most corps. Even last year when Blue Devils were going specifically for going against establish trends, they only made it, what, slightly less than halfway through a show before donning their more traditional tunics.

I suspect that directors are too nervous of completely alienating their alumni and donors by completely ditching the "traditional" look. I seem to recall Cadets alumni in particular freaking out in 2011 when word was Cadets were changing the uniform look for a season (the alumni base seemed to calm down a bit after the uniform was revealed and Cadets alumni saw it was only a minor color difference - and winning likely also eased the disagreement). Look at Boston this year as a perfect example of your assertion. They wanted grey tunics to better portray the drab look their show design, but seemed to really dig for a reason to justify the change to fans by correlating it with a uniform design from the 50's! It's like BAC Admin are able to say, "see: BAC did this before so it's OK to do it again" when they likely were mostly concerned with a cool design aspect and once they could justify the change via tradition they felt at ease.

On the flip side of this, can you imagine how crazy Cavaliers alumni/fans, to use an example, would get if they went a uniform design similar to Crowns?! I've heard discussion about that uniform on the Cavaliers alumni message boards, and I suspect Cavaliers alumni would lose their ship (ship = filter-happy word to substitute an expletive). As a teacher in a public school, I can TOTALLY understand why a director would be hesitant to open that can of worms & face the stress, anger, tension of those who should be the corps' biggest supporters. I'd love to see corps to more stuff like Crown. I'd love to see corps directors jump right into the deep end, embrace a show design/visual concept, and field a uniform that is totally representative of the show theme (as opposed to, for example, Cadets performing WSS in west point cadet-style traditional uniforms instead of the entire corps in costume as Sharks, Jets, cops, etc). I agree that a uniform serves little purpose as a militaristic representation while adding flourishes that kind of vaguely suggest a tie-in to the show theme (like Phantom's Juliet show corps proper). I know that would likely be a not-popular change at face-value (for example, the way people freaked out over a standstill photo of a member posing in his uniform), but it might serve the show/presentation better.

Maybe if Crown wins DCI more corps will want to jump on that fundamental uniform change bandwagon.

While we're at it... it is time for these silly ski bib pants to go. There is no body shape out there that this looks good on... also, costuming needs to be considered in the full context of the performance, which is wherever people are hanging out watching you do stuff. Watching guys warm up in bib pants is silly.

Pretty much EVERYTHING involved in marching arts is inherently silly at face value. What a corps wears during a warmup is of zero concern to me. Warm-ups are for corps preparing to perform, which then means that it ALL about how a corps looks in a performance.

On the topic... shoes. With so much revolution going on out there in the athletic shoe world (and drum corps is athletics from the neck down) we're still out there wearing souped up nurses shoes? Really?

lol

That doesn't bother me at all if they're comfortable to perform in. I think out of any criticism that can be slung at modern drum corps visual design, type of shoes is maybe the absolutely last thing on the bottom of the list.

Bottom line... guys out there are trying way too hard. Seems like it is the manufacturers driving this... it isn't helping to make things more accessible, not at all. Time to go back to the drawing board... everyone tabula rasa with a build up, rather than tear down approach and hopefully the result will be something that is not only contextually relevant, but movement appropriate and a little less awkward for the general public.

I've read similar argument on here before: that manufacturers somehow deviantly push corps to do certain things. As you probably know, the relationship between customer (in this case drum corps) and client (in this case, for the sake of this thread, uniform manufacturers/designers) is such that customers pay a vendor to make what the customer wants. The customer places an order, or sits down with the client in order to custom design a product, and the client gives the customer what they want. Corps often beta test new products for manufacturers in order to gain the research that dictates "is this the best possible design? will this product stand up to the rigors of a drum corps tour? if not, then how can we make a better product?" This is even more true when it comes to uniform designs, where often the director will dictate a fairly specific design concept, a uniform designer gives them a mock-up to show their interpretation of what the director wants, the director goes back and tells the designer what's good, what's bad, and what's almost good, the designer goes back and makes changes based on the director's feedback. Repeat these steps until the director is happy, places the order, and new uniforms are made. Yes, designers/manufacturers lend their expertise in order to better accommodate a director's wishes, but generally that type of thing is dictated by the customer, not the manufacturer.

All that aside, I agree that directors should stop dancing around the issue and jump right into the waters with modern visual design-specific uniforms.

[perc2100]

Another general thought about this:

I would guess that traditional uniform design stemmed from "back-in-the-day" when shows had little/no thematic through-line and a corps wore a uniform for several years out of financial necessity or maybe just convenience. A corps HAD to have a sort of "bland" (for lack of a better word), or maybe more apt to say "far broader functioning" uniform design in order to fit several years' worth of show designs. What worked for Spartacus also had to work with "Chess: the Art of Strategy" also had to work for "Postcards from Britain" which had to work for "Heros" and "Jekyll and Hyde." Show-specific costuming for an entire corps would be difficult without a militaristic type of uniform that could be adaptable for anything. Heck, I would bet even fifteen years ago uniform design was of little thought when it came to the overall visual design. Maybe now-a-days WGI-style costuming is far more economic than traditional FJM corps uniforms, and thus more feasible for a corps to use. We still have directors who marched back in the day, and are used to the pride of wearing the corps proper: thus an uncomfortable truth that perhaps dropping a west point cadet style uniform in lieu of a modern 'costume' might work better for a show design.

[danielray]

On this specific issue (bib pants), I agree with your thoughts. I personally don't think warm-ups need to be tailored for anything other than getting a corps ready to perform. I don't see warm-up zones as secondary performances areas, and I don't think drum corps should change anything to accommodate the pseudo-performance venue warm-up zones have become. Uniform design is ALL about visual design + comfort. Sacrificing either of those is crazy, regardless of "it looks bad when corps warm-up in half uniform.

Except for the fact that there are hundred of warm up videos online viewed a crazy amount of time each.

This is not a warm up, it is a performance, because it is being seen all over the world. I needs to start being treated more like a performance.

[Pete Freedman]

Except for the fact that there are hundred of warm up videos online viewed a crazy amount of time each.

This is not a warm up, it is a performance, because it is being seen all over the world. I needs to start being treated more like a performance.

You're right that with the restrictions in place on seeing an actual performance on youtube, practices may actually get more views. Add to that the member-cam phenomenon, and shorts and t-shirts have to some extent become every corps' uniform. I like it when a corps issues standard color shorts and t-shirts. I'm sure that's so they can see things more easily, but that works for us too.

Still, the half-uniform look is only part of this trend, and given that everyone in the corps is focused mostly on a finals night performance, I can't see it changing. It is what it is, as they say.

[danielray]

On 6/19/2013 at 6:00 PM, normy diploome said:

There goes Daniel Ray the Infallible again going over the top with unsubstantiated personal opinions and declaring them facts.

Well, I counted one world class corps in bib pants in the lot this summer.

Hats are also not as much of a thing these days.

French horns and trombones have been used extensively.

Front ensembles have been moved all around.

Costumes have been used to create new visual effects (ex: Colts last summer).

Corps started exploring pre-recorded announcements (ex: Bluecoats).

DCI and several corps started outsourcing several aspects of operations, including merch.

Um, this one also happened, but in a much different way.

Anyway, if you want to know what drum corps will be doing in 2028... happy to share some unsubstantiated personal opinion. 🙂

 

[Fran Haring]

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Edited November 5, 2019 by Fran Haring