What do you think is wrong with Drum Corps today (if anything)?

[Ben]

Pump up Open Class a little more. Needs more love. Might help if you knock a couple corps back down there that IMO shouldn't be in World Class.

[N.E. Brigand]

No one cares if you use a train whistle or a sampled train whistle. The effect is the train whistle and how that creates a mood. I do not that just because a sound is made electronically that it is automatically inferior to a sound played acoustically and I think drum corps fans should start thinking the same way. You ostracize yourself from the production that modern corps put on the field.

If I go to see a play, and instead I am shown a film version of the same story, should I be told that it doesn't matter because the effect is the same?

This is not a great analogy because you are being dualistic. It's not just a play or a video. Drum corps if we stick this anolgy, is definetly a combination of highly edited and manufactured elements and live "play" elements. By making some elements "movie" elements they should enhance the "play" elements.

But drum corps has only recently become that combination, and many, many people came to love drum corps in part because it was, to continue my analogy, like a play--live performances in front of an audience--and not like a film, where all the achievement happens before the audience ever sees the show. How many of those audience members, who enjoyed that aspect of drum corps were asking for it to be changed into a mélange of live and prerecorded performance? That men's choir sound you praise in Cadets' show (a sound I find far less effective), which for all we know isn't even performed by members of the Cadets, is furthermore always performed the same way, with no risk (as voice, that is; admittedly the volume slider might be higher or lower, or the synth player might trigger it slightly sooner or later).

And furthermore:

I do not ever make the argument that some sounds aren't better left to acoustic means. However I am saying that acoustic elements are sometimes better left to electronic and visa versa.

As skywhopper shows with multiple but far from exhaustive examples, synths are being used regularly as filler and support for material that brass lines used to cover by themselves--which was more impressive.

Also:

You are not going to a drum corps show expecting zero electronics, you would be a nooby if you did.

What on earth does that mean? Simply because corps started adding muck to their shows in 2009 (when it was certainly an unpleasant surprise to me, a person who was indeed expecting zero electronics), it's OK now? Time doesn't make bad decisions good. I wish I could go to a show expecting zero electronics, which means that I go instead accepting that all performances are marred nowadays in a way they weren't five years ago. Almost every performance since 2009, no matter how good it may be in other ways, has moments that are just awful to listen to for reasons that never arose in 2008 or before.

[charlie1223]

But drum corps has only recently become that combination, and many, many people came to love drum corps in part because it was, to continue my analogy, like a play--live performances in front of an audience--and not like a film, where all the achievement happens before the audience ever sees the show. How many of those audience members, who enjoyed that aspect of drum corps were asking for it to be changed into a mélange of live and prerecorded performance? That men's choir sound you praise in Cadets' show (a sound I find far less effective), which for all we know isn't even performed by members of the Cadets, is furthermore always performed the same way, with no risk (as voice, that is; admittedly the volume slider might be higher or lower, or the synth player might trigger it slightly sooner or later).

And furthermore:

As skywhopper shows with multiple but far from exhaustive examples, synths are being used regularly as filler and support for material that brass lines used to cover by themselves--which was more impressive.

Also:

What on earth does that mean? Simply because corps started adding muck to their shows in 2009 (when it was certainly an unpleasant surprise to me, a person who was indeed expecting zero electronics), it's OK now? Time doesn't make bad decisions good. I wish I could go to a show expecting zero electronics, which means that I go instead accepting that all performances are marred nowadays in a way they weren't five years ago. Almost every performance since 2009, no matter how good it may be in other ways, has moments that are just awful to listen to for reasons that never arose in 2008 or before.

The consistency of samples don't bother me. I like drum corps because it looks and sounds awesome. I have no issue with te design tools. The idea of acoustic/non-acoustic/pre designed/risk don't matter independently only if it makes it more or less enjoyable. That's obviously different for everyone and that's fine but I think there is exaggeration of how awful the synth/Sfx are in corps shows... You can hate the synth sounds but implementation all around is very very high this year.

So as for me, I'm happy with the design approach most corps have and what's great is that it can only get better from here! I don't think synths are being used a filler. While corps are utilizing synth more many corps don't use them as "filler". They are purposeful and effective design choices not "filler". Also what examples were given of synth sounds that's would have been better if done acoustically??

You're over-reacting to the expecting electronics comment... I go to DCI shows expecting synth and most people do now.

Edited July 18, 2013 by charlie1223

[Jeff Ream]

having experience in the pitted percussion world, synths are often used as filler and to added "aural beauty" with things like voices etc added to big chords. really, it isn't adding that much, and to this day, balance is still an issue. sure pits use softer mallets now with amps, but heights havent lowered as much as people claim.

to be perfectly honest with you Charlie, all of the great PR hoopla about amps, then synths has had holes shot in it time and time again. You don't have to look for poor usage, or worse, lame creativity, it smakcs you in the face. I'm actually ok witht hat stuff if it's used well.

the problem is for 10 years now we've been told the top people in the world are using this stuff and they know how to do it. Well for 10 years, we still have balance issues and lame ideas. I often see far better usage at a local band show. Plus since we are in outdoor venues, the speakers etc used are poor for the enviroment. You see the same stacks set up in gyms everywhere for indoor percussion, where you have FAR FEWER balance issues...and often far more creative ideas and usage.

[charlie1223]

having experience in the pitted percussion world, synths are often used as filler and to added "aural beauty" with things like voices etc added to big chords. really, it isn't adding that much, and to this day, balance is still an issue. sure pits use softer mallets now with amps, but heights havent lowered as much as people claim.

to be perfectly honest with you Charlie, all of the great PR hoopla about amps, then synths has had holes shot in it time and time again. You don't have to look for poor usage, or worse, lame creativity, it smakcs you in the face. I'm actually ok witht hat stuff if it's used well.

the problem is for 10 years now we've been told the top people in the world are using this stuff and they know how to do it. Well for 10 years, we still have balance issues and lame ideas. I often see far better usage at a local band show. Plus since we are in outdoor venues, the speakers etc used are poor for the enviroment. You see the same stacks set up in gyms everywhere for indoor percussion, where you have FAR FEWER balance issues...and often far more creative ideas and usage.

It's honestly not has bad as everyone thinks! I actually enjoy more than gripe about synth and pit design in shows. I've written, taught and performed in shows that use electronics. Most of the complaints about DCI design appear to me as exaggerations. I understand that you have at least a more open mind to these things because you judge indoor. But seriously, the exaggeration here with DCI synth design is way over blown. It's not all perfect but a lot of it is really intriguing, effective and done at a high level.

[N.E. Brigand]

The consistency of samples don't bother me. I like drum corps because it looks and sounds awesome.

In that case, it sounds like you might enjoy it just as much if the entire show were prerecorded. Or you might claim that a well-done Broadway musical or Cirque performance, because it looks and sounds awesome, is good drum corps, if a bit on the long side, with overage members, and not performed on a football field. If that comment seems ridiculous to you, it just proves that you too have some limit beyond which you would not define drum corps. In which case we're just arguing about what those boundaries are.

I have no issue with the design tools.

Would it be safe to say you'd have no problem with woodwinds? That they would be, to you, just another design tool? While my objection to electronic sound is nearly as much about poor implementation as about the nature of the tools themselves, the latter does matter to me. In my opinion, drum corps was, and should be, brass and percussion, performed acoustically and with the vast majority of the members marching. I know that others through the years have set other boundaries, that might exclude, say, brass instruments not pitched in the key of G, or contras, or a stationary front ensemble. I am willing to compromise in my beliefs and allow for exceptions (although in a perfect world there would be penalties: say, half a tenth for every microphone, one point for every synthesizer, one tenth of a point for every member beyond 150, etc., forcing corps to make judgment calls), but just as a string quartet, if you keep adding other instruments to it, eventually isn't a string quartet anymore, so there comes a limit beyond which drum corps isn't drum corps. I'm willing to acknowledge my preferred boundaries. Are the (almost) anything goes crowd willing to delineate theirs?

The idea of acoustic / non-acoustic / pre-designed / risk don't matter independently, only if it makes it more or less enjoyable. That's obviously different for everyone and that's fine

Those elements don't matter to you. But something must matter to you. Rock bands and symphony orchestras can both be very enjoyable, but I don't think you'd call them drum corps--so what would you say to someone else who did?

but I think there is exaggeration of how awful the synth / sfx are in corps shows... You can hate the synth sounds, but implementation all around is very very high this year.

You know, people aren't just making their negative responses up. The use of synthesizer does seems to be very slowly improving--over five years--but almost every show even this year has repeated objectionable moments when the elements that makes corps special, i.e., brass and percussion, are overwhelmed by nasty electronic sounds that match the rest of the corps in volume even though only one or two members are creating them with no physical effort. And for a lot of people, the expenditure of physical effort in corps counts for something. Just as many plays are less impressive when adapted to the cinema, because you know that what had to be performed from memory in the space of two or three hours was shot in little pieces over days or weeks.

So as for me, I'm happy with the design approach most corps have, and what's great is that it can only get better from here!

Thank goodness the musical quality of drum corps slipped for five years, because that leaves more room for growth!

I don't think synths are being used a filler. While corps are utilizing synth, more many corps don't use them as "filler". They are purposeful and effective design choices not "filler". Also what examples were given of synth sounds that's would have been better if done acoustically?

See skywhopper's very specific examples above, with times noted in shows from Fan Network videos. And as he also noted, several people who saw Phantom Regiment at a competition this year when they couldn't use their electronics due to weather found that their brass really was dependent on the synths to sound full. Can you imagine that in 2006 or 2008?

You're over-reacting to the expecting electronics comment... I go to DCI shows expecting synth and most people do now.

You said that only "noobs" would not expect to see electronics in shows. I stand by my reply, which is that such a comment is practically meaningless. If woodwinds are allowed, most experienced attendees (those few who continue to go to shows) will surely "expect" to see woodwinds, but that doesn't mean they are obliged to like them!

[charlie1223]

In that case, it sounds like you might enjoy it just as much if the entire show were prerecorded. Or you might claim that a well-done Broadway musical or Cirque performance, because it looks and sounds awesome, is good drum corps, if a bit on the long side, with overage members, and not performed on a football field. If that comment seems ridiculous to you, it just proves that you too have some limit beyond which you would not define drum corps. In which case we're just arguing about what those boundaries are.

Would it be safe to say you'd have no problem with woodwinds? That they would be, to you, just another design tool? While my objection to electronic sound is nearly as much about poor implementation as about the nature of the tools themselves, the latter does matter to me. In my opinion, drum corps was, and should be, brass and percussion, performed acoustically and with the vast majority of the members marching. I know that others through the years have set other boundaries, that might exclude, say, brass instruments not pitched in the key of G, or contras, or a stationary front ensemble. I am willing to compromise in my beliefs and allow for exceptions (although in a perfect world there would be penalties: say, half a tenth for every microphone, one point for every synthesizer, one tenth of a point for every member beyond 150, etc., forcing corps to make judgment calls), but just as a string quartet, if you keep adding other instruments to it, eventually isn't a string quartet anymore, so there comes a limit beyond which drum corps isn't drum corps. I'm willing to acknowledge my preferred boundaries. Are the (almost) anything goes crowd willing to delineate theirs?

Those elements don't matter to you. But something must matter to you. Rock bands and symphony orchestras can both be very enjoyable, but I don't think you'd call them drum corps--so what would you say to someone else who did?

You know, people aren't just making their negative responses up. The use of synthesizer does seems to be very slowly improving--over five years--but almost every show even this year has repeated objectionable moments when the elements that makes corps special, i.e., brass and percussion, are overwhelmed by nasty electronic sounds that match the rest of the corps in volume even though only one or two members are creating them with no physical effort. And for a lot of people, the expenditure of physical effort in corps counts for something. Just as many plays are less impressive when adapted to the cinema, because you know that what had to be performed from memory in the space of two or three hours was shot in little pieces over days or weeks.

Thank goodness the musical quality of drum corps slipped for five years, because that leaves more room for growth!

See skywhopper's very specific examples above, with times noted in shows from Fan Network videos. And as he also noted, several people who saw Phantom Regiment at a competition this year when they couldn't use their electronics due to weather found that their brass really was dependent on the synths to sound full. Can you imagine that in 2006 or 2008?

You said that only "noobs" would not expect to see electronics in shows. I stand by my reply, which is that such a comment is practically meaningless. If woodwinds are allowed, most experienced attendees (those few who continue to go to shows) will surely "expect" to see woodwinds, but that doesn't mean they are obliged to like them!

Do I want all shows pre recorded and just want members airing their parts? No. But I don't have a problem with that being "possible". It just would get a very low score and no one would want to march in a corps that did that. People want to play! Also just because I don't like it doesn't mean corps shouldn't have the ability to do it.

No problem with woodwinds or strings or circus acts on the field if its effective!. I'm very much for an anything goes league. I don't necessarily think DC should be purely acoustic brass, guard, percussion. I personally don't want to change the actually DCI league any more but a new one would be cool. And again, just because I'm for anything goes doesn't mean I'd want it to be bad/boring/cheesy or lose the "spirit" of DCI which is young people performing.

So what matters to me is the combination of visual and music done by a lot of people in unison or with uniformity. Rock bands and symphony orchestras don't have that and it's a very "pageantry arts only" kind of deal. In Cirque the performers aren't the ones creating the music though it would be amazing if guards were able to do that kind of stuff on a football field no!? I don't think they should be limited to just either dancing or using equipment. Some acrobatic stuff would be especially exciting in a DC show.

[Kansan]

I will preface this by stating that I marched in the 70's and taught in the 80's. There.

As my predecessors complained about the advent of piston/rotor horns and plastic drum heads, this debate will go on forever. If I had a short list of things I'd like to change...

I'd like to move away from the WGI influence. I've seen all the body movements and drum line posing possible.

Please stage your drum corps show on the scale of a football stadium, not a basketball court.

Too much makeup.

Running with a drum is unnatural, and dangerous. I know people who have lingering pain from carrying them up and down the 50. I don;t want to think what the current generation will deal with in their middle and senior years.

I don't care how many rotations you can throw with your rifle or saber if you can't catch it...in place. Maybe reinstate pentalties for drops. Grounding would still be cool.

We were told that the introduction of amplification would allow corps to use fewer keyboards. When will that happen?

Thunderous goo. Just stop. You have a whole section to play the contrabass voice. Use them, don't insult them.

Electronic instruments. It's drum and bugle corps. They're unnecessary. Get creative, not lazy.

Anyway...

Garry in Vegas

I totally agree.

[Kansan]

o Show Design: Less clutter, Less running, Less ambiguity of theme. More recognizeable music.

o Electronics: Needs to be reduced or eliminated. A Corps should be able to get off the bus and perform their show without a power outlet. Not being able to do so is a BIG FAIL.

o Uniform Design: There used to be more difference in uniforms. Many used to be produced by the support staff. Use of Spandex needs to be prohibited for Hornlines and Drumlines. Maybe some in the Color Guard but that's about it.

o Overdone body movement: Hornline posing and Drumline out of formation gang stances are getting really old.

o New Classes of Corps: I like the idea of Sound Sport and Drum Battles in that it enables small grops to participate in DCI in some capacity. DCA should do something similiar. Much for doable for a small startup to work up a presentation, video it and send it in to be evaluated. Also doable for the same group to perform at a DCI show close to them.

The members of our small all age corps are liking the idea of not having to travel long distances to play for a couple of minutes. Sound sport could encourage the forming of more small groups that would compete against each other and even meet up at a summer DCI show to play before the show starts. We had a 20 minute space of time at Brass Impact that could have been used for a Drum Battle or a Couple of Sound Sport teams to perform.

o ALL AGE Catagory: I'd like to see the All Age Corps listed on the DCI website. Why not have one or two All Age Corps perform at each show. It's really difficult to make it out to the East Coast to participate in DCA. Maybe more All Age Corps wold form and maybe some friendly competition. Battle of the weekend worriors. Might not be pure perfection but might be entertaining.

[skywhopper]

It's honestly not has bad as everyone thinks! I actually enjoy more than gripe about synth and pit design in shows. I've written, taught and performed in shows that use electronics. Most of the complaints about DCI design appear to me as exaggerations. I understand that you have at least a more open mind to these things because you judge indoor. But seriously, the exaggeration here with DCI synth design is way over blown. It's not all perfect but a lot of it is really intriguing, effective and done at a high level.

DCI may be doing the best outdoor marching band synth production ever in history, but that doesn't mean it makes a better product. You clearly enjoy it. Lots of other people don't. The guy sitting next to me at DeKalb got really excited when he thought for a few seconds that Vanguard had set up its pit without a synth. He was like "all right! No keyboard!! YES!! Go Vanguard!" and I felt bad but figured he would hear it during the show so I pointed it out to him over on the far left side of the pit. He was crushed. "Just because it's legal doesn't mean you HAVE to use it!"