A few thoughts on DCI then, now, & future...

[BRASSO]

And that right there my friend, is the next step DCI will take I hate to say.

Woodwinds are coming, its not a question of if, but when. It might take awhile yet. But when Woodwinds are added, the younger generation of then will wonder why it took these marching bands so long to go without the woodwinds, and the 16-35 year olders of today will be the dinos then and they'll pine for the " good old days " of today when the Drum Corps at least had SOME semblance of not being Bands, and will be able to get cranky about" the good old days" before there were flutes, saxophones, etc. The newer generation of that future will come onto DCP and say how much they like the " current innovations", and how these marching bands have evolved into marching bands that are way better than the marching bands of around 2016 or so. And they'll remind the old dinos then that its still all about the kids, education, and seeing the diversity that all these newer marching bands now have, and to find all the good that there is in the diverse marching band community that offers " something for everyone ". Plus, they'll probably say " listen to how good Simple Gifts sounds with flutes and saxophones compared with that mishmnash of chopped up stacatto noise of obscure music played by so many those DCI " bands back in the day " of 2010-2016 ". Then, the current generation of today and the dinos of today will be sympatico even if one half of them will be pushing up daisies by then.

Edited August 5, 2013 by BRASSO

[Tim K]

Bull!!! As someone who has been involved since the seventies I have never crapped on the youth of subsequent generations. Many of the changes within DCI during the eighties, nineties, and the early portion of the new millennium have been imo to the positive. However, the recent design push to place visual not only in the driver's seat but to make the music a bast*** child slave afterthought to the visual has been one exception, and the push to make this activity a multimillion dollar per year major league touring system, thus placing a knife in the heart of the youth activity, is another. So, you can take your overgeneralized statement that we old farts are nothing more than curmudgeons who crap on the young and... (I will get banned from DCP if I type that here).

I will believe that you never took pot shots of the younger generation because I am the same way and we're probably close in age. However, I can still remember all the comments regarding the Bridgemen at CYO Nationals in 1976 the year of their overhaul. I also remember the outcry when Phantom opened with Stravinsky in 1978. I also recall all kinds of letter to the editor of DCN. I remember thinking the complainers were old cranks, now I know they were probably no older than I am today (50).

Today, the concerns are not just generational changes as in the past. People see the activity slipping away. This, too is not new. Madison's 1985 show as well as SCV's uniform change of same year were controversial and not "drum corps." Today both shows are classic "old school." For me, the big difference is that kids no longer grow up in drum corps. Chances are most people who marched in the 70's and 80's were in a feeder corps growing up and either graduated to the upper corps or marched with a smaller corps and auditioned for a more competitive corps. I grew up in the Boston area and we had the CYO circuit that included drum corps, drill teams, and bands. Most were founded by a handful of people, shared instructors and arrangers, and created a certain culture. this is lost and there's no way we can bring it back. It's not a criticism of kids who march today. They can't participate in what no longer exists.Also, there are reportedly judges who have never marched and show designers who never marched. All of these things do make a difference.

However one thing has not changed. I speak with kids who march today and they still work as hard, are still as dedicated, and are incredibly talented. That's what I try and remember when a show is not to my liking.

[Tim K]

Woodwinds are coming, its not a question of if, but when. It might take awhile yet. But when Woodwinds are added, the younger generation of then will wonder why it took these marchiong bands so long to go without the woodwinds, and the 16-35 year olders of today will pine for the " good old days " of today when the Drum Corps at least had SOME semblance of not being Bands, and will be able to get cranky like a few of legacy fans and MM's about the good old days before there were flutes, saxophones, etc. The newer generation of that future will come onto DCP and say how much they like the " current innovations", and how these marching bands have evolved into marching bands that are way better than the marching bands of around 2016 or so. And they'll remind the dinos then that its still all about the kids, education, and seeing the diversity that all the newer marching bands now have.

Why do drum corps need to have woodwinds? The difference between a wind ensemble and an orchestra is strings. Jazz bands usually do not include flutes or clarinets. Different musical groups sue different instrumentations. However, one of the challenges of drum corps to master is creating a sound using all brass rather than strings and woodwinds.

In DCI's early days they had a drill team division and color guard competitions. WGI took over the guard shows. There was also talk of a band division which may just have been et wishful thinking of the Boston area CYO bands that were losing members to drum corps. Personally if woodwinds would have enhanced drum corps shows, they would have been included long ago. Also, woodwinds would not allow for the uniform look that the all silver plated brass instruments in use today, so it would be a visual problem.

[BRASSO]

I can still remember all the comments regarding the Bridgemen at CYO Nationals in 1976 the year of their overhaul.

The difference is that the CYO Nationals in the mid 70's had an audience of approx. 18,000. The CYO Nationals of 2013 had an audience of approx. 4,000. I attended both. The loss of former fans is sad. The 1980 DCI Championships Finals audience that saw the Finals Live was a little over 38,000. We all seem to agree that the Corps are bigger, better, have more talent than 1980. But the number of people that will see Finals live is much less than half that of 1980. We can't continue to stick our heads in the stands and say its ok to have former fans decide to walk away without a plan to replace them with newer fans that will continue to support the activity year after year once being first exposed to it.

Edited August 5, 2013 by BRASSO

[steeldrum]

I haven't posted anything in a long while. But this is a perfect thread to voice my concern with the state of DCI.

I'm a long time DCI fan, dating back to 1978, but have been involved as a parent the past 5 years. While I've seen some great shows over this recent period, I am very concerned about the direction of the activity as it relates to fan enjoyment. The bottom line is DCI needs money to survive, and these "out there" esoteric shows are going to keep losing fans and revenue. And that will be followed by loss of sponsorships from equipment manufacturers as the attendance drops. And then DCI is dead.

I can appreciate the artistic side of what these designers are doing, but the masses aren't going to pay $45 - $125 to sit through 3 hours of these type shows. I was at the Atlanta show, which BTW felt more like a BOA contest than a DCI show. The crowd reaction, or lack of reaction, to BD's show was very telling. It apparently was not enjoyed by the majority, and I doubt very many ran out to tell their friends "man, you've got to see this show!!". Unfortunately the folks who appreciate fine art, indie foreign films, deep thought books, etc are a select few, certainly not enough to fill a 50K seat stadium. Just compare the attendance of the Atlanta DCI show to the Honda Classic Battle of the Bands. Now, I am in NO WAY advocating any corps adopt an HBCU show band style, simply pointing out that those show bands give the audience what they want, and they fill that stadium up every year.

If DCI wants to grow this activity, and get it back to the attendance levels it had in the 80's, then it has to change the sheets to promote fan accessibility. For you younger fans, simply go to YouTube or Fan Network, and watch any show from 1980 - 1996, enjoy the music and watch the crowds (25,000+ strong) go crazy after each song. Yea, I'm an old schooler but I'm also a marketing guy. I know that if folks don't like your product they're gonna stop buying it, and then you're done.

[perc2100]

Welcome back to the activity. Sounds like you are now properly up to speed on everything and can now join all of us here at DCP to voice your "concerns."

I'm sure it will result in the same feelings of satisfaction we all have, that we are the key providers of the correct directions the activity should follow.

Okay, I admit to some sarcasm...that's accepted here right?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Such an awesome, awesome response

[alumniof]

Here is my feedback. Marched a top 6 corps in the 8o's. Was at Allentown. Flew in with my fiancé to show her what I did back in the day. She played clarinet in HS band. We were not entertained. It wasn't enjoyable. We started making fun of everything to entertain ourselves. It wasn't compelling. Can I say gay without it coming across pegorative? If so...the dancing horn members look gay and legitimize the term band geek. I would not be in a horn line that did any of that. What is the thickness of the metal on those instruments? I bet its thinner than a can of Coke. Mic the horn line so I can hear them. Why not have woodwinds....I mean....what's the point of excluding them at this point. They aren't bugles...why call it a drum corps at this point. I thought the point of performing was entertainment. I thought the point of music was communication...universal language. That's not universal except annoying. The corps are reinforcing that music is for background and something to be done to....useless on its own. Why am I sitting here and watching this. My fiance needed a 5 hour energy to get through it...boring, uncompelling, I have other things I would rather do than sit and watch this. Listening was something I didn't even care to try and do. Oh....apparently everything is a story and a lesson and has meaning and I am supposed to care about it and get deep and congratulate you for making me think everything in life wants to be round. Stop trying to be Aristotle and blow some wind into the instrument and make me want to dance instead of me watching you do yoga in WalMart band uniforms. Its like the conversation you have as a joke....what if your wife decorated your man cave. Yeah....what would it be like if WGI took over drum corps. It would be what it is. Its an activity for itself, not the public. The hell with the people who marched before. No...its not the future Picasso that we don't appreciate now it will be exactly what everyone said it was when it gets there....a marching band trying to do something different that hasn't been done before and is hard (like I care) and that supposed to mean entertaining? Different doesn't mean creative. Hard doesn't mean appreciation or value. The point us enjoyment. If the activity is for judges, parents and your fellow band friends who don't march then have a good sheltered time. Don't ask me to write my legislator and support music ed or ask me for money and support. Why? What gave you done for me? Nothing. American Revival in 2002. I'll want to watch that. Cavies 007 in 2000 whatever. Blue Devils 82. Cadets 84. Madison 85. Just entertain. Simplicity is the answer. You are going in the wrong direction. The lyrics You Don't Know You are Beautiful relates to the common girl and guess what they listen to it, enjoy it and dance and smile because it touches them and they want to dance. If you want to be some prideful elite organization tripping over yourself about how smart you are and dumb the rest of the world is for not getting it....than great. But...don't ask me for money, support if complain. Its boring, I don't enjoy it, I dont care what you think or say or what your 150 kids did. I'm glad they are getting exercise and not doing drugs. As if you are the only thing that accomplished that. The church youth group down the street has 500 kids also not doing that. Madison....thanks for the preshow tease. I didnt know it was just a tease of entertainment to come. Why are there preshows? Why announce the coros again during it. Every standing ovation was a ciurtesty as to not be disrespectful. Nobody cared. When BD was done nobody even showed respect for that. Just sat because it was boring. All that running and playing for a great score to the over educated musical judge and your arranger to feel ultra brilliant. You got booed because at least Crown was at best interesting but even that i dont care to see again nor do I remember it other than in comparison it was the best crap of all the crap. I heard simething like Crowns drumline is keeping the score down. Really. Like i care if Crown wins. I just know the scire is irrelevant to anything. What's the resolution? There is none. Just do what you do and have a nice day. Stay safe.

[soccerguy315]

sitting at Allentown this year, I was struck by the number of shows that relied VERY heavily on voiceovers to tell the story...

and I didn't really care for it, honestly.

[Stu]

Here is my feedback. Marched a top 6 corps in the 8o's. Was at Allentown. Flew in with my fiancé to show her what I did back in the day. She played clarinet in HS band. We were not entertained. It wasn't enjoyable. We started making fun of everything to entertain ourselves. It wasn't compelling. Can I say gay without it coming across pegorative? If so...the dancing horn members look gay and legitimize the term band geek. I would not be in a horn line that did any of that. What is the thickness of the metal on those instruments? I bet its thinner than a can of Coke. Mic the horn line so I can hear them. Why not have woodwinds....I mean....what's the point of excluding them at this point. They aren't bugles...why call it a drum corps at this point. I thought the point of performing was entertainment. I thought the point of music was communication...universal language. That's not universal except annoying. The corps are reinforcing that music is for background and something to be done to....useless on its own. Why am I sitting here and watching this. My fiance needed a 5 hour energy to get through it...boring, uncompelling, I have other things I would rather do than sit and watch this. Listening was something I didn't even care to try and do. Oh....apparently everything is a story and a lesson and has meaning and I am supposed to care about it and get deep and congratulate you for making me think everything in life wants to be round. Stop trying to be Aristotle and blow some wind into the instrument and make me want to dance instead of me watching you do yoga in WalMart band uniforms. Its like the conversation you have as a joke....what if your wife decorated your man cave. Yeah....what would it be like if WGI took over drum corps. It would be what it is. Its an activity for itself, not the public. The hell with the people who marched before. No...its not the future Picasso that we don't appreciate now it will be exactly what everyone said it was when it gets there....a marching band trying to do something different that hasn't been done before and is hard (like I care) and that supposed to mean entertaining? Different doesn't mean creative. Hard doesn't mean appreciation or value. The point us enjoyment. If the activity is for judges, parents and your fellow band friends who don't march then have a good sheltered time. Don't ask me to write my legislator and support music ed or ask me for money and support. Why? What gave you done for me? Nothing. American Revival in 2002. I'll want to watch that. Cavies 007 in 2000 whatever. Blue Devils 82. Cadets 84. Madison 85. Just entertain. Simplicity is the answer. You are going in the wrong direction. The lyrics You Don't Know You are Beautiful relates to the common girl and guess what they listen to it, enjoy it and dance and smile because it touches them and they want to dance. If you want to be some prideful elite organization tripping over yourself about how smart you are and dumb the rest of the world is for not getting it....than great. But...don't ask me for money, support if complain. Its boring, I don't enjoy it, I dont care what you think or say or what your 150 kids did. I'm glad they are getting exercise and not doing drugs. As if you are the only thing that accomplished that. The church youth group down the street has 500 kids also not doing that. Madison....thanks for the preshow tease. I didnt know it was just a tease of entertainment to come. Why are there preshows? Why announce the coros again during it. Every standing ovation was a ciurtesty as to not be disrespectful. Nobody cared. When BD was done nobody even showed respect for that. Just sat because it was boring. All that running and playing for a great score to the over educated musical judge and your arranger to feel ultra brilliant. You got booed because at least Crown was at best interesting but even that i dont care to see again nor do I remember it other than in comparison it was the best crap of all the crap. I heard simething like Crowns drumline is keeping the score down. Really. Like i care if Crown wins. I just know the scire is irrelevant to anything. What's the resolution? There is none. Just do what you do and have a nice day. Stay safe.

Welcome to DCP!!!! And you have some great points, and I for one agree with many of them. That said, while 'Stream of Consciousness' is a wonderful literary technique, it is not a very effective tool in supporting a particular position. Just sayin'

Edited August 6, 2013 by Stu

[oldschooldbc]

For those of you who remember the days before "amplification", has our worst nightmare come true? Is this simply progress, or did we open Pandora's box 10 years ago?

Yes. And if you are familiar with the myth of Pandora, from ancient Greek mythology, once Pandora opened the box, she let all forms of misery and suffering out into the world. Once they were out, it was impossible to get them back in.

Now that we have made these changes - and I dislike perhaps 90% of them - it will be next to impossible to reverse them. It would take an entirely new regime in drum corps - both at the administrative and artistic level. It would require wholesale changes to the management of this activity. (I would argue that it is needed for a whole host of other reasons, but then we would go completely off topic.) The house would have to be cleaned, and cleaned out completely.